Am I the only person in the world who's a fan of the Ki-43

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I interviewed a number of 5th AF fighter pilots before writing Fire in the Sky. Robert DeHaven (14 kills, 10 in a P40) was one of the most interesting. Talking to a pilot doesn't necessarily tell you much about the technical - some were interested in the fine points of their planes, others weren't. (Edwards Park who wrote for the Smithsonian and was a P39 jockey made that point in his memoirs.) DeHaven once said that he thought he flew a bumblebee - big heavy metal things shouldn't fly: but his plane was too stupid to know it, so it flew. To put it mildly the Oscar certainly made an impression. Anyone who saw them in action during 1943 when they flew in numbers at places like Wewak was startled by the maneuverability of the plane. DeHaven claimed he saw one perform a "double Immelmann" - a maneuver you'd expect to see at an airshow. For reasons Americans never really understood, when present in large units, Japanese aircraft would often do complex maneuvers while in sight but not range of US planes: build morale? entice someone into a dogfight? Anyway, the Oscar was probably the only operational monoplane fighter in WWII that was more nimble than the Zero. But at a very serious cost. To get speed over 300 mph and retain the kind of maneuverability wanted by Japanese pilots (who had an unusual influence in aircraft design) the Ki-43 was put on a serious weight reduction plan. Like the Zero it had many innovative features. However, it shared every disadvantage of the Zero vs US fighters except more so. The Ki-43II on paper could make 330mph at 12,000 feet. The A6M2 put out 345 at 15,000 ft, the A6M5 350mph at 20,000. (In the front lines, fighters almost never performed up to specs. Indeed with the technology available in the early 40s it was not possible to measure performance with the precision found in later decades. That's one reason why it's hard to find two sets of performance figures that agree with each other. For US WWII fighters the "go-to" source has to be "America's 100,000" by Francis Dean. It's a large format Schiffer book and will delight anyone who likes graphs. Dean was an aviation engineer and knew the topic.) Figure about 350 at 16,000 feet for a P-40E. The speed and critical altitude for the second generation US fighters left both the Oscar and Zero in the dust. The P38G did 400mph at 26,000, the Corsair 390 mph at 24,000 etc. As far as the Oscar goes, it would have fought 5th AF P-40s and P-38s in the Pacific. Pay attention to critical altitude - if a plane performs well up high, you can expect to see it up there. What that meant in the Pacific is that the Oscars spent a lot of time looking up at an enemy - never good. P40s were happier at mid-alt but it was more nimble than the P-38 and could out-roll an Oscar at high speed. US planes got into trouble if they lost too much energy - at anything under 250 and Oscar would gain six in seconds. Of course US airplanes could get into trouble not seeing the enemy - that was true anywhere, and explained why any well flown fighter was dangerous. But US pilots favored disciplined group tactics - if a flight of P38s kept up their speed they could pass through a Japanese formation (perfectly willing to trade "headers") - the Japanese would scatter or an inexperienced pilot would react too slowly. No matter what if the US planes kept up their speed they would find victims and they would be beastly hard to shoot down. And if the first pass failed, they'd gain altitude, turn and make another pass: and another. The Japanese learned to hate the P-38.
The Ki-43 did fine work in China, yet even the mediocre Tojo was preferred there. The reason that 5,000 Oscars were built was because it was a plane that worked and Japanese industry was able to make and keep flying. (10,000 Zeros were produced for the same reason - both marks until VJ day). Japanese pilots were most eager to get better planes and Japanese industry tried very hard to produce them. The Ki-61 was certainly an improvement, but even this well tried design spent a lot of time on the ground because engines were poorly constructed. By 1944 the Ki-84 was showing up and was a fine plane - when it was off the ground. (The same could be said about any second generation Japanese fighter. Arguably the best of the lot was the Ki-100 because it's radial gave it good performance and was pretty robust.)
So admire the Oscar if you like. It has lovely lines, although I prefer the Zero's. (To my eye the enemy made lovely planes - the Zero, FW-190 and BF-109 were all very handsome. Ours were business-like but lacked crisp lines. Even the Spit, to my eye, has an odd wing. Others may have different views.) But it's wrong to call the Oscar an underrated fighter. It was a modern fighter. It could shoot down planes if the situation was right. But it had only the lightest of armor, it's "self sealing" tanks didn't work against .50 caliber guns, and it didn't stand a chance in a dive against any opponent. It was seriously inferior to its American opponents - you didn't send a fragile plane with two mgs into a war of attrition against tough and well armed planes like those flown by 5th AF. Again, the Japanese were the best judge of things. Their finest engineers spent the war years trying to produce planes better than the Oscar and Zero.
 
There was also fuse-less ammo for the Ho-5 20mm cannon, per docs Paul posted.

Your right I had neglected that side! this does then mean the 20mm was "better", although the firing time is reduced as the ammo load drops from 250 of 20mm > 150 of 12.7mm rounds as their rof is about the same. The trials with 20mm Ho-5 in the Ki-43-III in 1945 required extending the engine forward 0.12m so it wasn't an easy change to make, and at that the time the Ho-5 had derated ammo as the gun steel quality was reduced due to lack of alloys. The Ki-43 was obsolescent by then anyhow.
 
The Ki-43II on paper could make 330mph at 12,000 feet. The A6M2 put out 345 at 15,000 ft, the A6M5 350mph at 20,000. .

I find the Ki-43 fascinating but I now believe the JAAF should have dropped the Ki-43 for the Zero once it became clear it was a superiour design already by 12/1941 Of course the army would make it "army" by removing carrier gear and changing to JAAF's own design 7.7mm and 12.7mm.
 
The Ki43 had glaring weaknesses, one of which was unique to it, but others that it shared with the A6M. The weakness unique to the Oscar, was its poor armament. The weaknesses it shared with the Zeke were the lack of armour, and allied to that, the propensity to catch fire and crumple under even small amount of combat damage. both were at best mediocre dive aircraft. Ive heard also that roll rate was pretty poor. Both were poor in maneuverability at high speed. Combine the dive characteristics with poor handling speed an you get the standard evasion tactic of the pacific....a high speed dive followed by a flick turn at the bottom and retreat at high speed. neither the Zeke or the Oscar had answers for these tactics.
 
Hello Parsifal,
I had actually heard that the Ki 43 unlike the A6M did not lose that much of its roll rate at high speeds and that was its advantage over he A6M series. Diving speeds were not great but reached about 650 KPH with the -II and is about the same as the A6M.
One of my friends actually had a piece of wing skin from a Ki 43 and it is amazingly flimsy. At the time I did not think to ask which version of the Ki 43 it came from because I did not know there was a difference in structure.

I wonder if it was the opposition that made the difference.
The Russians fielded many two gun fighters which seemed to be fairly successful. I know their 7.62 mm and 12.7 mm MGs had extraordinarily high firing rates, but their 20 mm cannon did not.

- Ivan.
 
Russians always had bad exchange rates in air fighting, but after the Kuban experiences, altered their tactics to deal with the Luftwaffe. The Luftwaffe was both a fire brigade , running up and down the front to contain as best they could, the various soviet offensives as they developed, but also acting as a rapier to surgically neutralise the opposition. The experiences over the kuban showed the Russians that winning air superiority over the qualitatively superior Germans was impossible. They changed tactics after Kuban. They realised that they didn't need to win air superiority, they needed air parity over those sections of the front where they wanted to project their airpower over the land battle. they needed also to present enough potential threats to the enemy through their fighters so as to keep them from applying their point attacks......so large numbers of poorly equipped fighters were just what the VVS needed. Large numbers of fighters meant that they could apply a presence over a battlefield more or less continuously, firstly to keep the LW fighters busy so as to minimise their effect on the VVS attack a/c, and secondly present enough threat to the LWs own attack aircraft as to discourage their total commitment to the developing land battle. It was a strategy that worked. The Russians during 1943-5 affected the battles on the eastern front to a vastly greater extent than the LW did, which I think materially affected the breakthrough battles on the ground. the successful breakthroughs they (the Soviets) achieved meant that far greater numbers of LW aircraft landed (and immobilised) close behind the front were lost in the land offensive than were ever lost in air combat. It was these losses on the ground in the breakthrough battles that really tore the heart out of the LW on the eastern front, not the losses in the air.
 
Hello Vincenzo
thanks a lot for sharing!
Do you know the meaning of the red and green dotted lines?
Do you have same sort of info on Fiat G.50?

Juha
No sorry i don't remember, i think that the symbol in low and right is the forum or creator avatar EDIT creator avatar now here as bruno_bis
i've
Fiat_G50_Breda_127mm.png
 
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I find the Ki-43 fascinating but I now believe the JAAF should have dropped the Ki-43 for the Zero once it became clear it was a superiour design already by 12/1941 Of course the army would make it "army" by removing carrier gear and changing to JAAF's own design 7.7mm and 12.7mm.

There was plenty of options for the IJA in 1941/42. Like - stick another pair of guns on the Ki 43 and install better exhausts. Or, shove the Ha 41 on the Ki 43. Or, shove the Kinsei on the Ki 43. Or, make much more of the Ki 44s.

...
I wonder if it was the opposition that made the difference.
The Russians fielded many two gun fighters which seemed to be fairly successful. I know their 7.62 mm and 12.7 mm MGs had extraordinarily high firing rates, but their 20 mm cannon did not.

- Ivan.

When Soviet fighter carried two guns, one of them was 20mm cannon, or two of them as in case with La-5. Shvak fired at 700-800 rpm, much faster than any Japanese cannon until Ho-5 arrived, or MG FF(M) or Hispano 404 or II. Could be easily synchronised. Granted, it's shell was among the lightest between the 20mm cannons.
 
There was plenty of options for the IJA in 1941/42. Like - stick another pair of guns on the Ki 43 and install better exhausts. Or, shove the Ha 41 on the Ki 43. Or, shove the Kinsei on the Ki 43. Or, make much more of the Ki 44s.

This sounds like a case of "Why mess with success?", especially for a short victorious war.
Most of these ideas sound pretty good and necessary in hindsight but would have compromised the basic design for agility.

When Soviet fighter carried two guns, one of them was 20mm cannon, or two of them as in case with La-5. Shvak fired at 700-800 rpm, much faster than any Japanese cannon until Ho-5 arrived, or MG FF(M) or Hispano 404 or II. Could be easily synchronised. Granted, it's shell was among the lightest between the 20mm cannons.

The Russians seemed to have a great preference for central armament over high firepower. Apparently they also recognized that the 2 x 20 mm cannon armament on La-5 was a bit too light and the later versions carried 3 x 20 mm guns which weighed less than the original ShVAK cannon.
Do you suppose that this preference for central armament made sense with the Lend Lease Airacobras? Removing the wing guns left only two .50 Cal and the questionable 37 mm.

- Ivan.
 
This sounds like a case of "Why mess with success?", especially for a short victorious war.
Most of these ideas sound pretty good and necessary in hindsight but would have compromised the basic design for agility.

No hindsight needed. IJA gave green light for the Ki-60/61 and Ki-44 before 1941, problems with intercepting and destroying SB gave them a fair & timed warning. Plus they knew well already by 1941 that Western countries are either producing or have in pipeline fighters that can go faster than 550 km/h, and bombers that can go 500 km/h.

The Russians seemed to have a great preference for central armament over high firepower. Apparently they also recognized that the 2 x 20 mm cannon armament on La-5 was a bit too light and the later versions carried 3 x 20 mm guns which weighed less than the original ShVAK cannon.
Do you suppose that this preference for central armament made sense with the Lend Lease Airacobras? Removing the wing guns left only two .50 Cal and the questionable 37 mm.

- Ivan.

Central armament gave them good firepower at small weight and low volume requirement. They introduced 37mm high velocity cannon on two fighters and used them against aircraft and tanks alike.
Removing the wing guns on the P39s was a way to decrease weight and drag. The 37mm was reliable enough from some time in 1942, and packed enough punch to perhaps kill a He 111 or Ju 88 with singe shell. Much is said of low-ish MV of the M4 cannon, but it was greater than of the MG FF or Type 99-1.
 
The Russian planes were small and until the As-82 engine, under powered.
LaGG-3.gif

Sticking guns in the wing means reducing the fuel tankage, which was less than desired as it was. All three Russian fighters had wings only few % bigger than a 109
The Russian 7.62 machine gun was a very high rate of fire gun but it needed careful hand fitting (expensive to make in man hours) and suffered from jams. Replacement by the 12.7mm gun was partially due to the 12.7 being cheaper to make despite larger size.
Russian armament fits also have to take into account numbers of airframes vs number of guns available. One factory was producing LA-5s with three guns. LA 9 or LA 11 got four 23mm guns post war?
Fewer fighters with more guns? or more fighters with fewer guns?
Both the M-106 and M-107 engines were failures during the war so getting the power to carry heavier armament was a big problem.
Russians in 1941-43 could not afford too much mucking around with the designs in production unless absolutely needed.

Getting adrift here. :)
 
Parsifal has done a good job of giving a rundown on the Japanese 20mm cannon.
This picture helps sort out some of the differences.
WW2aircart1.jpg

The 12.7 x 81SR being the Japanese/Italian round. The 12.7 x 99 is the US and the 12.7 x 108 being the Russian.
The 20 x 72RB is the round used in the Japanese type 99 model 1 cannon. The 20 x 80 RB being used in the German MG/FF. The 20 x 82 was used in the German MG 151/20 and the Japanese army used the 20 x 94 in the Ho-5 cannon. Russians used the 20 x 99R and the Japanese Navy used the 20 x 101 RB in the type 99-2 Cannon.
Please note that the first 3 and last 20mm rounds use very similar projectiles (until the Germans introduce the MINE shell and it was by no means as universal as some people believe, sometimes only 40% of the ammo load.) the 4th and 5th 20mm rounds using shells somewhat closer in weight and much lighter than the others. They make up for this with higher velocities and higher rates of fire. (The MG 151 also had a higher rate of fire). The 20 x 101RB round used the heavy shell at a MV close to the 4th and 5th rounds but at a lower rate of fire.
The long projectiles carried 2-3 times the amount of explosive/incendiary material as the short 20mm projectiles and 5-10 times that of the 12.7mm projectiles.
The 20mm Hispano used essentially the long 20mm projectile at a very high MV and a rate of fire (until the MK 5 gun) about 1/2 between the slow firing guns and high rate of fire/low projectile weight guns.
This is a quicky rundown and exceptions in specific shells/loadings can be found.

A plane supplied with 60 round drums obviously runs out of ammo quickly and has poor combat endurance, but a plane with only few medium caliber (12.7mm) guns often cannot bring down multiple planes in one flight either as it needs a fair amount of ammo to bring down one plane on average.

I would note that the Zeros at Midway had over 30 seconds of firing time for their 7.7mm guns and so still had something left to try to attack the dive bombers with. If armed with 12.7mm guns with 18-20 seconds worth of ammo would they have had anything left after dealing with the torpedo planes?
Or enough ammo left to make a difference?
 
The Russian planes were small and until the As-82 engine, under powered.

Too bad they didn't fit the AM-38 on a fighter, apart from couple of prototypes. As-is the engine power was not worse than Italian or Japanese fighters on aggregate, while there was plenty of Western fighters that didn't exactly bristled with engine power.

Russian armament fits also have to take into account numbers of airframes vs number of guns available. One factory was producing LA-5s with three guns. LA 9 or LA 11 got four 23mm guns post war?
Fewer fighters with more guns? or more fighters with fewer guns?
Both the M-106 and M-107 engines were failures during the war so getting the power to carry heavier armament was a big problem.
Russians in 1941-43 could not afford too much mucking around with the designs in production unless absolutely needed.

The La-5 with 3 cannons was using B-20 cannons, 3 of those weighting about as much as 2 Shvak. Also less ammo per cannon. B-20 was from late 1944, it took a while to produce enough of them. One can't install what is not available :)
La-9 was with 4 cannons, La-11 'lost' once cannon so another fuel tank can fit for longer range.
 
Too bad they didn't fit the AM-38 on a fighter, apart from couple of prototypes. As-is the engine power was not worse than Italian or Japanese fighters on aggregate, while there was plenty of Western fighters that didn't exactly bristled with engine power.

The trouble with the AM-38 was that it was a big engine.
It weighed about 50% more than a M-105 engine. The Mig-3 with the AM-35 engine was about 22% heavier than Bf 109F-2 and didn't carry a much different weight of armament. Granted the AM-38 makes more power low down but it was hardly a "plug in" replacement for the M-105 series engines in existing fighters. Especially as it couldn't take a gun through the prop hub.

There is a reason the Italian or Japanese fighters didn't carry heavy armament. Low engine power :)

Americans stuck heavy armament in low powered fighters and paid the price. P-40s and P-39s that needed other fighters to fly top cover for them.
 
Personally I'm glad that the Japanese kept the Oscars and Zekes flying so late in the war. They provided more 'meat' for the hungry Lightnings, Hellcats and Corsairs to devour. And judging from the lines of the F6F it definitely had a healthy appetite! :p

But seriously this is a great thread about a wonderfully designed aircraft which even in the final stages of the war could still bite an allied pilot if he wasn't paying attention or were caught at a disadvantage. It was easy to fly and maintain as well so it was perfect for the situation that Japan was experiencing after 1943, being the lack of experienced pilots and the raw materials to keep them in the air. The Japanese military was short-sighted enough to allow this situation to occur and the allies certainly capitalized on it.
 
The trouble with the AM-38 was that it was a big engine.
It weighed about 50% more than a M-105 engine. The Mig-3 with the AM-35 engine was about 22% heavier than Bf 109F-2 and didn't carry a much different weight of armament. Granted the AM-38 makes more power low down but it was hardly a "plug in" replacement for the M-105 series engines in existing fighters. Especially as it couldn't take a gun through the prop hub.

Oh, I did not suggest a plug-in replacement for the M-105 engine. M-82 engine was not a featherweight at 850-900 kg dry, yet they installed in on the LaGG-3 basic airframe to get the La-5. Small Fw 190 also carried heavy engines, like the BMW 801 or Jumo 213.
Shvak was not a Hispano or MG FF, it fired well synchronised, both on La-5 and 50-something MiG-3s that got it.
 

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