Anglo Boer war.

Discussion in '1800-1914' started by Henk, Feb 7, 2007.

  1. Henk

    Henk Active Member

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    One of the worst wars ever fought before the Great war was the Anglo Boer war. Why do I say it was one of the worst? The fact that so many woman and children were used to win a war that the strongest country in the world could not win. The war were all about wealth. The two Boer states the Transvaal and the Free State went to war with the British Army in 1899 and fought on for almost 3 years and proved that the size of your army does not mean a total victory but the way you use the few you have.

    82,742 Boers against a well equipped and well trained British Army of 346,693, and to think the war went on for so long.

    Now the Anglo Boer war means much to the True Afrikaans Speaking person in the sense that many of there fore fathers died and fought in the war. My Family also fought during the war and the Great Boer General Koos De la Rey was the Hero of the war with the victories of Magersfontein and Spijoenkop some of the great battles he fought.

    General De la Rey also invented the Gorilla war fare tactic which has been used all over the world made him very famous and it proved very successful against the British Army.
     
  2. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Hendrik are you going to be bringing up some specific battles that we may read upon ? you would be the perfect source on this almost unknown conflict

    many thanks

    Erich
     
  3. Henk

    Henk Active Member

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    Yes, I will get out all my books and bring you all the info of all the greatest and not so great and not so famous battles during the Anglo Boer War.
     
  4. Henk

    Henk Active Member

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    A little bit of History of before the war started.

    When General JH (Koos) de la Rey had the first shot of this war fired on Thursday, 12th October 1899, nobody would have thought that the English hopes for a war were not only answered, but that this was to be the bloodiest and dearest war the Empire ever fought - until the Great War 1914-18.

    The build up to this, the Second Boer War, was a long and confusing one.

    After the Great Treck (1835-7) and the Zulu War ( 1838 ) the 1st Boer War (1880-1) marked the first culmination in the strive of the two Boer Republics - the Zuid-Afrikaansche-Republiek (ZAR) or Transvaal and the Oranje-Vrijstaat (OFS) or Orange Free State - to remain independent from British rule. The Burgher Forces of the Transvaal were victorious in all four battles fought in this war - the victory in the Battle of Majuba Hill still being celebrated or cursed today, depending on were ones sympathy lies. After this 1st Boer War, the Boer Republics were able to regain their somewhat shortlived independence at least on paper. But British rule in the Cape Colony and Natal made sure that the discovered riches of gold in the Transvaal were used to destabilise the young republic. In 1895/96, Cecil Rhodes, the former Governor of the Cape Colony, organised the infamous Jameson Raid on the Transvaal, which was fought off and eventually led to the hardening of lines between the Boer Republic and the British interests in southern Africa. British subjects in the Transvaal, the socalled Uitlanders, were used for an uprising against the elected Government, and the British High Commissioner for South Africa in Cape Town, Sir Alfred Milner, openly demanded the annexation of the Boer Republic by the crown.

    From 2nd to 5th of June 1899, President MT Steyn of the Orange Free State, hosted a Peace Conference between the Transvaal and the British High Commission in Bloemfontein which failed to achieve the desired result.

    The number of Imperial British troops in South Africa rose from 8456 men with 24 artillery pieces in december 1898 to 22 104 men with 60 artillery pieces in october 1899. On top of this, Britain called for mobilisation on October 7th 1899, to sent an army corps of 47 551 officers and men with 122 guns to push through the British interests in South Africa.

    This led to the mobilisation of the ZAR and OFS forces - a total of approx 32 000 civilians under arms. Further, on October 9th the Transvaal issued an ultimatum to Britain, demanding that all open questions have to be addressed peacefully, all British Imperial troops on the border to the Boer Republic have to be withdrawn and that all British troops on their way to South Africa have to return to Britain.

    The ultimatum expired at 5,00 pm on October 10th 1899.

    On October 11th 1899, about 800 Republicans under General JH Koos de la Rey attacked the British armoured train “Mosquito” at Kraaipan. Lieutenant Nesbit and thirty-four soldiers, nine of them wounded, surrendered the next morning. The Burgher Troops of the ZAR discovered British Mark IV ammunition in the train, better known as dumdum....
     
  5. Wildcat

    Wildcat Well-Known Member

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    Interesting topic Henk. As you would know Australia fought in the Boer war with about 16 500 soldiers serving there. Of these, roughly 600 died, though most through disease. 5 VC's were awarded during the war.
    The Boer War is immortalised in Australian History through the Breaker Morant incident which you may or may not know about. This is still tought in school today.
    See here for Australia's involvement in the Boer War.Boer War and
    Boer War; Dutch farmers fighting Aussie farmers
     
  6. Henk

    Henk Active Member

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    Yes, Scotish, Canadian, Australian and New Zealand troops fought with the British army.

    Here are a few of the great Boer Hero's.

    Presidant Kruger (Transvaal)

    Presidant Stein (Oranje Vrystaat/ Orange Freestate)

    General Jacobus (Koos) De la Rey

    General Pieter (Piet) Cronje

    General Christiaan De Wet

    and a French man, Goerges, Comte de Villebois-Mareuil

    Here are a few great battles that took place.

    Talana (20th October 1899)

    Although the first shot of the war was not fired at Talana (Dundee), Natal, it is regarded of having been the first real battle of the war. General Lucas Meyer with about 3.500 men of the Utrecht, Wakkerstroom, Krugersdorp, Vryheid, Middelburg and Piet Retief commandos, and three 75mm guns, were attacking the 4.363 British men and 3 artillery batteries under the command of Major-General Sir William Penn Symons stationed at Dundee.

    Even though the British fought off the Boer attack and General Lucas Meyer had to withdraw from the hills overlooking Dundee, the brave effort of the Burghers were costly for the Empire. The British commander Sir William Penn Symons was killed in action, the British suffered 52 killed, 203 wounded and 246 men captured by the Boers. This in comparison to the 31 killed, 66 wounded and 20 captured on the Boer side. Brigadier-General Yule, second in command to Penn Symons, had to withdraw his forces from Dundee to Ladysmith.

    The town of Dundee was to be occupied by Boer forces until 15th May 1900 - after the relief of Ladysmith.


    Elandslaagte 21st October 1899

    Just one day after the battle of Talana, a british cavalry reconnaissance under the command of Major-General JPD French led to a battle with the Boer forces of General JHM Kock near the town of Elandslaagte.

    Kock´s 850 men of the Johannesburg commando, the German and Hollander Corps and two 75 mm guns were soon to be overrun by French´s 3.500 men and 18 guns. In a running battle that pushed the Boer forces off the hills around the town and way back north, the British artillery demonstrated a fine display of disciplin in advancing several kilometres with stopping and firing at a very high rate.

    After the battle a large number of Boers were forced to withdraw over a wide open field to the north-east of Elandslaagte, where they were attacked by the first squadron of the 5th Lancers and the Dragoon Guards. The British cavalry showed no mercy and charged three times over an area covering two kilometres. Many Boers died praying and on their knees, begging for mercy. There are many reports and instances of cruelty and bloodthirsty “pig sticking” on this charge of the British cavalry - which was the last cavalry charge by the British army in a set piece battle.

    The casualties amounted to 45 killed, 110 wounded and 188 captured on the Boer side - amongst them the Count of Zeppelin of the German Corps. The British lost 50 killed and 213 wounded.


    The British Black Week


    Stormberg 12th December 1899

    The British General Gatacre decides to attack Stormberg Junction, one of the most important railway junctions in the region of Molento. Rushing his forces of 2.700 men and 12 field guns in a night march in the direction of Stormberg junction, Gatacre exhausted his men and sent them directly into battle after their arrival. About 1.700 Burghers under the command of Chief Commandant JH Olivier were taken by surprise but managed to fight off the British charge. Due to the british scouts losing their way and many an Imperial soldier falling asleep on the battlefield due to exhaustion the battle soon came to an end.

    After just 75 minutes Gatacre called off his attack and withdrew. The British casualties amounted to 25 killed, 102 wounded, 672 men taken prisoner and three field guns captured by the Boers. Republican casualties amount to 5 killed and 16 wounded.


    Magersfontein 11th and 12th December 1899

    At 4:00 am, 3.400 Highlanders sent by Lord Methuen under the command of General Wauchope, massed in quarter columns (which means that 3.400 men form a rectangle of 38 x 155 metres!) were on their way to attack Boer trenches which where expected to be on top of Magerfontein Hill. In a strategic masterpiece the Boer General Koos de la Rey had his men dug trenches in front of the hill. The Highlanders were taken under a fierce and continuous fusillade from invisible positions 400 metres away. Within the first 15 minutes of the battle the advancing British troops lost most of their high ranking officers and were left in the field without orders. During the day the British started several attempts to withdraw their troops in order, which all failed. At about 4:00 pm the British retreat turned into a rout. All soldiers still in the field fled their positions. Around 6:00 pm the Boer forces left their trenches to help the British doctors in their efforts to help the wounded. Although being subjected to constant shelling of the British field guns, the Boer fighters shared their water with the wounded British soldiers.

    On the second day of the battle the British agreed to a Boer offering of a cease fire, so that the last British dead and wounded can be removed. As the Burghers again left their trenches to assist the British doctors a British naval gun opened fire at Boers and British alike - but was soon silenced by Boer artillery. At around 2:00 pm the British forces retreated to their camp at Modder River.

    General Koos de la Rey´s strategy of placing positions in front of hills did pay off nicely for the Boers, causing the second lost battle for the British in as many days.

    Boer casualties amounted to 71 killed (amongst them the whole Scandinavian corps of 42) and 142 wounded. The British suffered 288 killed, 700 wounded and more than a hundred missing. In addition, several hundred of the surviving kilted Highlanders had to be treated for severe sunburn.


    Colenso 15th December 1899

    The British “Black Week” was rounded up with the first battle in General Sir Redvers Buller´s attempt to relieve Ladysmith from Boer siege.

    The British army at Buller´s disposal was 15.000 soldiers and 44 guns strong (6 infantry brigades with 16 regiments, 1 cavalry brigade with 6 regiments, the Naval artillery with 14 guns and 5 batteries of the Royal Field Artillery). They were opposing approx 4.500 Burghers and their 5 guns. Amongst them the Johannesburg, Middleburg, Boksburg, Soutspansberg, Heidelberg, Krugersdorp and Wakkersstroom commandos and the Swaziland and Johannesburg Police. The Boer forces were led by General Louis Botha - at age 37 the youngest of the Boer generals and successor of Piet Joubert as Commandant-General.

    Botha´s strategy was to hold up the advancing British forces through an enormous system of trenches along the Thukela River. The British, in turn, were bringing their troops from Port Durban via Frere to the Thukela line in their effort to relieve the rounded up British garrison of approx 13.000 troops and 7.900 civilians in Ladysmith. Buller had to cross the river and to storm the natural barrier of the Thukela Heights (hills) in order to advance passed the Boer lines.

    On 15th December the first attept was made at Colenso.

    At 5:20 am the British Naval guns opened fire at the Boer positions across the river, whereas British field artillery advanced towards the river in an attempt to cross it. Due to the misjudgement of a Colonel CJ Long, the advancing British artillery was in front of the infantry supposed to support them. Long´s orders were precisely followed, which led to them being unlimbered and put up within rifle range of the Boer forces across the river. About 600 metres from the river the British gunners suffered heavy casualties, amongst them colonel Long himself. Under heavy fire the gun crews fled the area, leaving behind 12 field guns within reach of the Boer forces.

    Meanwhile, on the western flank, General AF Hart marched his Irish Brigade in massed quarter columns (see Magersfontein!) in broad daylight towards the enemy positions. He missed the spot where he was supposed to cross the river and the whole brigade was pinned down by Boer rifle fire for the rest of the battle. At around 9:00 am the whole battle was static. General Buller, in an attempt to get a better picture of the battle, was lightly wounded by a Boer shrapnel.

    The British army´s codex of never to abandon guns took another terrible toll. The first charge for the relive of the guns was led by a Captain HN Schofield and Lord Robert´s only son, Lieutenant Freddy Roberts. This and the following attempt to safe the guns failed in the rifle fire of the Boer forces from across the river. Freddy Roberts and more than half of the men sent to safe the guns were killed.

    At 11:00 am all british troops were in full retreat. At approx 5:00 pm some Burghers crossed the Thukela and captured 10 of the British field guns, with nine ammunition wagons, in full sight of the retreating British troops.

    The British lost 143 killed in action, 756 wounded, 240 missing and 38 taken prisoners by the Boers. The Republican forces suffered 7 killed, 30 wounded and one drowned.

    The battles of Stormberg, Magersfontein and Colenso marked the socalled “Black Week” with British casualties amounting to 456 killed in action, 1.558 wounded, 710 taken prisoner and 340 missing.

    More comeing soon.........
     
  7. Henk

    Henk Active Member

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    Spionkop 23rd - 24th January 1900

    For a short time, prior to his failure in the Thukela campaigne and the arrival of Lord Roberts, General Sir Redvers Buller was the highest ranking British officer in South Africa, Commander-in-Chief. Born in 1840, Sir Redvers was very popular with his troops and was awarded the Victoria Cross for his bravery in the Zulu War (1879). His main objective was to relieve Ladysmith and to break through the Boer lines at the Thukela, which were stretched over some 25 kilometres from Ntabamnyana to the south of Vaalkrans. Like at the battle of Colenso, his counterpart on the Boer side was Louis Botha and his handful of men.

    After the battle of Colenso, Buller´s 15.000 men strong army was reinforced by the arrival of the 5th Infantry Division under Lieutenant - General Sir Charles Warren, the hunter of Jack the Ripper in London. Buller decided to put up his headquarter on Mount Alice and stay with 9.000 men on the south side of the Thukela, whilst sending Warren with 15.000 men and 36 guns to cross the Thukela five kilometres upstream at Trichardt´s Drift. The plan was to outflank the Boer positions on the hills and swing around the high ground west of Spionkop.

    Late on 16th january 1900, 2.000 British troops crossed the Thukela virtually unopposed, but Warren failed to order an immediate attack on Ntabamnyana which would have given him certain victory. Instead he decided to wait for most of his troops to cross the river as well, which took them until 19th January. When, on the following day he eventually ordered his troops to attack the Boer positions, their forces had grown from a mere 400 men on 16th January to now 1.800 men supported by three guns and one pom-pom. Warren ordered an attack over open field, which gave the Boers free rifle range between 600 to 1.000 metres. The attack was fought off by the Boers, with British losses amounting to 477 men killed or wounded. The Boers suffered 72 casualties.

    After this setback, Warren and Buller decided that their way to Ladysmith will have to lead them via the near hill of Spionkop. The reason for this decision was never disclosed. The British were unfamiliar with the terrain and had no idea of what would be awaiting them on the summit. Reconnaissance work was not carried out.

    Warren and his senior officers decided to capture Spionkop under the cover of darkness with a force of 1.700 men of the 1st South Lancaster Regiment, 2nd Lancashire Fusiliers, 1st South Lancashire Regiment, Thorneycroft´s Mounted Infantry and half a company of 17th Royal Engineers. On the night of 23rd January, the British troops led by Major-General ERP Woodgate and Lieutenant-Colonel Thorneycroft set off to climb the hill. They reached the summit at approx. 2:00 am on 24th January, which, at that time, was held by 195 Burghers of the Vryheid commando and the German corps. The british charged the Boers off the summit, leaving them in sole control of Spionkop.

    After the successful capture of Spionkop, the British started to dig trenches, approximately 300 metres long. As the ground on the summit was rock hard, and most of the more effective trenching tools have been left behind (a tribute to the steep 400 metre climb of Spionkop), the trenches were very shallow and did not offer adequate cover.


    In the meantime word has spread amongst the Boers that the British successfully captured the summit of Spionkop. General Schalk Burger was very pessimistic about the situation and perhaps would not have been able to re-capture the hill without precise orders from General Botha. He ordered a Hendrik Prinsloo to an immediate counter attack with 80 men of the Carolina commando. Further he brought one 75 mm Krupp and a pom-pom on Twin Peaks into action. Fifty Boer fighters were ordered onto Aloe Knoll, a small summit attached to Spionkop some 300 metres away - and with significant strategic value to the Boer sharpshooters. Four guns on Ntabamnyama, one 75 mm Krupp, two 75 mm Creusot and one pom-pom were swung around to face Spion Kop. One more 75 mm Krupp near Botha´s laager was also brought into action.

    Botha ordered more men to Spionkop. Eventually there were approximately 400 Burghers from the Pretoria, Krugersdorp, Johannesburg, Standerton and Carolina commandos, with some help from the volunteers of the German corps. Due to the cover of darkness and mist all these preparations for the counter attack remained undetected by the British.

    By around 7:30 am the mist lifted just enough for the British to realize, that their judgement of the area has been poor. They dug the trenches not on the crest of the summit, but around one hundred metres in front of it, allowing the Boers to also establish their forces on top of Spionkop. At some places the positions were only a few metres apart.

    When the mist cleared the British, for the first time, became fully aware of the death trap their were in. The accurate fire of the Boer gunners and rifle marksmen from all the surrounding hills took its heavy toll amongst the British troops. Several attacks with bayonets were made by the British, but all were fought off under heavy casualties by the Boer fighters on the summit. For many hours the battle was static, with the superior British forces being pinned down in their shallow trenches. At about 10:00 am General Woodgate was mortally wounded and for a few hours the British officers Thorneycroft, Crofton and Coke all assumed being in charge of the troops on top of Spionkop. Thus adding to the overall confusion. Around 1:00 pm some of the Lancaster Fusiliers surrendered with white handkerchiefs. Boer forces left their trenches to capture the British soldiers, only to be sent back by the charging Thorneycroft shouting at the Boers: “I am the commander here, take your men back to hell, sir. There is no surrender!”

    With heavy Gun fire of about seven to ten shells per minute from behind the near Twin Peaks hills, the British suffered an increasing number of casualties as the battle commenced. This was observed by General Buller in his headquarters from across the Thukela. He ordered Major-General Lyttleton to a cavalry attack on Twin Peaks, which was carried out by Major Bewicke-Copley. Twin Peaks was held by only a few Burghers and the British cavalry and artillery attack was a full success. Unfortunately for the British, their own artillery mistook the fleeing Boers for their own troops and stopped their shelling. This signal was mistaken by the British headquarter which called off the successful attack. The Boers returned to their previous positions and continued with their shelling of the British troops on Spionkop.

    During the battle, British reinforcements were sent up the hill in a steady flow - bringing the number of troops on the summit to more than 2.000 - in a place that barely offers cover for half that number.

    The confusion on the British side was enormous. Warren did not receive updates in chronological order, Thorneycroft, and Coke did not receive any guidance from their superior officer. Concerns grew that the hill cannot be held during the night. At 7:30 pm Thorneycroft decided: “better six battalions safely off the hill than a mop up in the morning”. At 8:15 pm he gave the order to withdraw.

    Little did the British know about the casualties suffered by the Boer forces and their growing concerns that the battle was lost. At nightfall the Boers retreated to their laagers and many of them thought that they would have to give up their positions the next day. It was more or less by accident that Boers under the commando of field-cornet JCG Kemp scouted the summit before dawn the next morning, to find that the British troops have left Spionkop. To their surprise they found only dead, wounded and seven lost British soldiers on the summit. As soon as the news was brought to the Burghers waiting in the laagers around Spionkop, they rushed back on to the summit to claim their biggest victory in the war.

    Boer casualties amounted to 58 killed and 140 wounded - the Carolina commando suffering the most with 55 killed or wounded out of their total number of 85.

    The British lost a total of 1.185 men - with 322 confirmed dead, 563 wounded and 300 missing, most of them being victims of gun shells.


    The aftermath:

    General Buller was never to recover from this career-blow and was relieved of his position as Commander-in-Chief and succeeded by Lord Roberts. British reinforcements were sent to the Thukela and thrown into the battles of Vaalkrans (5-7th February) and the Thukela Heights (12-28th February 1900). Sir Redvers Buller, now commanding the Natal Field Forces, finally relieved Ladysmith on 28th February.

    General Botha proved that, despite his young age, he was a brave and able Commandant-General. He went on to lead his fine Burgher troops to many a victory in the guerilla stage of the war.

    More comeing soon.........
     
  8. HealzDevo

    HealzDevo Active Member

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    Must depend on where you go to school as I can't actually remember studying the Boer War in my school days, which ended in 2001.
     
  9. Wildcat

    Wildcat Well-Known Member

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    I was educated in QLD where I grew up. Learnt about the Boer War in history classes.
     
  10. Marcel

    Marcel Well-Known Member

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    The boer war was the reason why some of my countrymen had trouble picturing the British as their allies. After all the boeren were from dutch origin. Even the language is still very much alike to dutch. Most of the people realised that the nazi's were still a worse enemy.
     
  11. trackend

    trackend Active Member

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    I dare say Marcel you're right, however my old man said he got on really well the dutch in WW2 special at Walcheran, was treated very well and never felt any animosity towards himself or his mates.
     
  12. Emac44

    Emac44 Active Member

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    Now henk I will inform you that the British had an earlier Problem in New Zealand with what is called the Maori wars that began in 1845 and lasted for over 20 to 30 years with periods of treaties and cease fires coming into effect over that period. there were a total of 3 Maori Wars or New Zealand Wars as it become to be known. You contend that the British had problems in South Africa. Which by all means they did. But they pale into insignificance when you compare the Battles in New Zealand with Maori Warriors not only on the North Island but also in the South Island of New Zealand. Now given the size of New Zealand and the population of New Zealand Maoris at the time holding at bay the resources of the British Empire and troops being sent to defeat the Maori's in their stockades in areas of New Zealand this by all accounts is some feat of arms done by a native population not a European Army or Milita of the type. Plus the Maoris did not have the use of artillery that the Boers could and did have. Mostly the arms of the Maoris were muskets and rifles traded previously from British Settlers in the areas concerned. this by all accounts the Maori wars was gurellia in its very exsistence and the use of fortifications by the Maoris which predate the Boer War by nearly 50 years. the Maori War of New Zealand is known as the forgotten war but this produced the only treaty still enforce today signed by the British with a Native Population. Unfortunately for the Boers to the best of my knowledge you may have won significant battles against the British but they the British were truimphant were the Boers didn't at the conclusion of the Boer War and with the introduction of tactics by the British and using other Colonial Troops like the Australians and New Zealanders who were use to being in the Bush and riding in the saddle like the Boers Farmers the Boer war took a more militiaristic turn for the Boers and became a series of losing events from earlier victories that you have already mentioned. And with the failure by the Boers to take seiges like Mafaking and remove the British from strong areas of defence your people had no other choice but to resort to the commando type warfare that the Boers became famous for. However as i have said that was soon counter balanced with other Colonial Troops who were just as skilled as the Boers in South Africa much to the destain from the Boers themselves who realized a little too late that the earlier victories had swung dangerously the other way towards the British in and around 1900 to 1901. A website you may find interesting but there are others Henk The New Zealand Wars Even though the treaty of Vereeningig in May 1902 signed by the Boers and the British it sealed the end of the Orange Free State and the Transvaal and repairations of 3 Millioin Pounds Sterling by the British and self determination in Government in 1907 were just so much gloss and veneer for the Boers for in reality like the Maori Wars and a treaty signed the British Empire still went on with the Industrial Power behind it and nothing that a few rag a muffin farmers of Dutch descend according to the British would stand in the way of the Empire and the eventual goals of that Empire. the Boers didn't comprehend even during the Boer Wars that losses in men and material and even battles and some face by the British could and did were tolerated and treaties signed were a means to an end to the British Empire and the Leaders of that Empire. Henk you can read volumes in those history books of the Boer War and i am sure you do. Now comprehend this the British could afford to lose certain aspects of the Boer War but in the end the Triumph for the British was to maintain their Empire for as long as possible which included in the South African and Rhodesian aspect Gold Silver and Diamond Markets and taking that into consideration did the British in signing the treaty with the Boers to end this war lose. No they didn't nor did the British Government of the day worry extensively about self determination of South Africa in 1907 as South Africa and Rhodesia still remained in the Commonwealth as did New Zealand and India were many wars were fought in India in particular for example the Sepoy Wars etc. Unfortunately Henk. One has to take a more contracted view of the Wars fought in the Empire by the British with other areas within the Empire entirely. the Boer Wars was which there were 2 of them had overall little impact as such on the British as you may believe and think according to Boer Historians. Economically the British won the Boer War and your own Boers lost their emphasis to fight such an Empire which would prevail no matter what occurred. The Maori Wars which were by comparison were long and contracted in New Zealand and a treaty was signed hoiwever this still didn't guaranttee the Maori to self determination as the Boers were seeking and gained. New Zealand still became a province and later a country at the same time in 1907 as South Africa did, but still New Zealand was a Colony of England regardless of the Maori Wars. In other words Henk as far as the British were concerned with Empire. and its a simplistic view you may think but Money Talked and Bullshit Walked for those wars were fought upon economic reasoning not what the Boers or the Maoris were fighting for in retrospectively speaking
     
  13. Marcel

    Marcel Well-Known Member

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    Of course this was not the major part of the dutch people, mostly older people who experienced the Boer war. Most of this sentiment was before the war, and most of the people who thought like this were quickly cured from their ideas after experiencing the Nazi regime. I know of some people who joined the NSB (dutch nazi party) for this, but luckily not very much. People who help to free you from the nazis deserve your friendship and gratitude and I think most of the people at Walcheren were very thankful to the british for their part in this.
     
  14. Henk

    Henk Active Member

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    Yes, the British did fight for economic reasons and for power and wealth, but they still got what was coming there way. The British also fought against the ZUlus here and it was great battles and many died in those battles. The Boer war did cost the British government a lot of man power, money and equipment, but like you said all in all it did not have a impact on the EMPIRE.

    I think the Britsh should be held responsable for many horrors that occered in their empire and those people they killed all in the name of power and money, but the thing that pissed me off the most is that if you take the things the Nazis did and how the British went on about it it is actualy ironic for one fillen to point finger at a other. I am not saying what the Nazis did was right, but nothing has happend as such or any thing to show that they are sorry. Germany paid years and years for the things that happend in WW2.
     
  15. Marcel

    Marcel Well-Known Member

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    I think that counts for most colonial empires. The dutch also did a lot of things in the far east that we're not proud of now, just like the french, the belgian etc. We'll never make up for things done by our ancestors in the past. The only thing we can do now is try to help our former colonies developing and that is what my country does, and probably the British as well.
     
  16. Emac44

    Emac44 Active Member

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    So how long do you want reparations to go back to Henk. Back to the Boers or back to whence my ancestors come from in Skye in Scotland. And what happened to the Scottish Clans and such by the English that occurred over a 1000 years. With loss of language Celtic Loss of Religion Loss of self determination as Scotland had its own Parliament that predated that of England. Loss of Monarchy Loss of lands as the Clans had their own lands under a Chieftan Loss of Scottish heritage and the rape of women from Prima Noctua which was first night with any Scottish Woman on her wedding night by English Lords introduced by Edward the 1st LongShanks in the 12th century. Loss of Education as Scotland had already unversities and seats of learning prior to the invasion from England. Just how far do you want to go back Henk. Because if you only want to go as far back as the Boers or Maoris, what about the Scots Irish and Welsh who suffered under the English as well for hundreds of years. Don't these races deserve compensation Henk or are you just singular in your aspect. Problem is Henk you can not transpire the guilt of a few on the rest of a country. In other words to henk if you really want compensation from the British for what they did during the Boer war etc. then are not the Kaffirs of South Africa equally entitled to compensation from the Dutch Government as well and the impact Boers had on South African Negros before the British even set foot in South Africa. And as for the Germans during WW2 they made no secret of mass murder and execution of what they considered lesser races or even Dutch men and women who fought in the resistance movements in Holland. Or similar in France Russia Belguim Norway Greece Italy or any other European country that was occupied. except for the Concentration camps in South Africa which by all means is a black spot on the British Empire Germany set about under the Nazis to eradicated any one who was racially impure according to them. there is a big difference to experimentation preformed by the Germans in Auzwitz in Poland on Jewish or Gypsy Children Twins then to what occurred to Boers in South Africa. Even though I admit that it was a crime what the British had done where is the more Criminal action lies with what occurred in Europe from 1935 to 1945 by the Germans. Or isn't that important to you Henk as it occurred in Europe 70 odd years ago
     
  17. Emac44

    Emac44 Active Member

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    Of course the question is Marcel. Where did the Dutch Monarchy go to during WW2 and with whom did they shelter with whilst Holland was occupied by the Germans and at the liberation of Holland by the Allies. Which group of Allies liberate Holland as early as they could? So much for old animosities Marcel
     
  18. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

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    There was no crime in the Boer Wars. There were no rules; hence no crime. Britain need not apologise for anything it has done in the past; because all those alive today were not alive back then.

    The many horrors in the British Empire were all a product of their time. If you want people to start apologising for their Empires; you better take claim against the Greeks, Romans, Carthaginians, Russians, Mongolians, Chinese, Aztecs, Indians, Mayans, Persians, Turks, Austrians, Germans, Spanish, Portugese, French, Dutch, Danish, Norweigens and many-many more.

    If Britain were as harsh as the Romans - you wouldn't be complaining now. You'd all be dead or cleaning my toilet. If you got any problem with what Britain did over a century ago; then keep it to yourself 'cos you'll be fighting a losing argument.

    Product of our age; and we could have slaughtered all our colonies if we wanted. Be THANKFUL that we didn't enslave your ass and turn you into cotton pickers.
     
  19. pbfoot

    pbfoot Active Member

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    the answer to all the above questions is Canada .
     
  20. bomber

    bomber Banned

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    Henk could you please explain to us how the Boers fought their war, ie the tactics of the day they employed ?
     
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