Are you or have you ever been in the Armed Forces?

[Nonskimmer]

NonSkimmer, so you are in the Navy now..... tell us more.

Not much to tell, really. I've been in for just shy of sixteen years, been to some interesting places, and met tons of interesting people. I've been to the Persian Gulf a wack of times, done Arctic deployments (they suck! ), and more damn fisheries patrols than I care to count! Oh, and I've consumed a shit load of beer.

After years of serving on destroyers and frigates, I'm currently on a submarine course. Something different, with a small increase in pay.

Thanks, Nonskimmer. I've forgotten East-Canada.

A lot of people do!

 

[Medvedya]

Oh, and I've consumed a s**t load of beer.

Remember I once mentioned that I had a mate who used to be in the R.N?

That's exactly what he said when he was asked about his time there!

 

[Nonskimmer]

I've always gotten along great with the 'Kipper' (British) sailors! The boys love to drink, and they love a good scrap!

 

[kiwimac]

As anyone involved in Intel will tell you, the information gained by torturing someone is always considered 'bad.' This is simply because after awhile people will begin telling you what they think you want to hear JUST TO STOP the pain.

Nope there are better ways to gain intel. As for the prison debacle in Iraq, that was torture, it is unacceptable, worse it was simply damn stupid.

People, this is my first and last comment (unless pressed ), The war in Iraq is stupid, it is tactically dubious at best and downright idiotic at worst and it is actively empowering the creation of new cells of terrorists.

Why stupid? Because the best intel prior to the war beginning showed that Iraq was indeed complying with the UN / US demands concerning weapons.

Why tactically bloody awful:

1: The US has destroyed the infrastraucture and actualy physical structures of a country in order to impose democracy, this has led to the very situation the US was trying to avoid in the first place. An influx of Al-Qaeda and the proliferation of terrorists.

2: The US is trying to fight a guerilla war using conventional means, this did not work in vietnam, it will not work now.

3: After 11 Sept 2001 the US had an enormous amount of sympathy worldwide including in the moderate arab states, this sympathy has been squandered by the US's actions in Iraq. No-one denies that Hussein had to go but it was NOT the job of the US to force a revolution there, that is the right of the Iraqi people.

Further it seems to most of us in the rest of the world that Prez Bush, invaded Iraq simply for the oil. Why? Because otherwise he was invading Iraq under the impression that Hussein was involved in the Sept.11 terrorist action and he simply wasn't. The pilot-terrorists of Sept. 11 were mostly Saudis.

Lastly, all that has happened in the wake of the invasion is that Iraq has become what the US feared it already was, a haven for terrorists, a training ground for the future leaders of Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Al-Qaeda and the like and, unfortunately, a vietnam-like killing ground.

That great General Sun Tzu would consider, IMO, that the gain was NOT offset by the cost.

Kiwimac

 

[plan_D]

It depends how highly Sun Tzu ranked the capture of Hussein as a gain. In his times a lot of people died to stop one man...

 

[lesofprimus]

As anyone involved in Intel will tell you, the information gained by torturing someone is always considered 'bad.'

It may be considered bad, but sometimes the info is good and u make something happen, such as what I witnessed.....

This is simply because after awhile people will begin telling you what they think you want to hear JUST TO STOP the pain.

While this is true to a wide degree, under certain circumstances, they will tell the truth instead of winding up dead.... If u have 3 hostages and execute one of them in front of the other 2, chances are that they will truthfully tell u everything in 3 seconds time what u were questioning...

Nope there are better ways to gain intel.

I totally agree.....

As for the prison debacle in Iraq, that was torture

Making an Iraqi strip and pig pile a bunch of other guys aint torture...
"Hey Achmed, atleast they aint breaking our fingers eh?"
"Ya Muhammed... I thought I felt Yuseef touch my balls though...."

torture, it is unacceptable

I totally agree, mainly because I have seen it done before....

worse it was simply damn stupid.

I totally agree.. Probably the stupidest thing next to not closing ALL of Iraqs borders.....

I agree with 99% of what u said... Good points....

 

[Medvedya]

One trick that can be used is to first beastathon the suspect, and then suddenly be friendly and offer tea/cigarette ect.. the shock can make them crack.

 

[lesofprimus]

Good Cop/Bad Cop Routine..... I went through a short CIA training class in Somolia on interrogation techniques, and this was one of the more sucessful approaches....

 

[Medvedya]

Another trick is to make the suspect stand in freezing water, until they're blue with cold, then take them into a hut with six or seven space heaters blazing away. Imagine what happens when the circulation starts up again - aggh! As soon as they're feeling more comfortable, back to the pond!

 

[Nonskimmer]

Med, you sound like you have experience.

 

[Medvedya]

Nah, it's just gnarly things I've read and heard....

 

[Crippen]

I've always gotten along great with the 'Kipper' (British) sailors! The boys love to drink, and they love a good scrap!

Sounds terribly British!!!
Nonskimmer.... good reading.... keep it coming.
Subs!!??? always thought you would have to be barking mad to do that, A bit more money?!..... I think you need shed loads M8 to do that.

 

[kiwimac]

The problem with torture is, where does it end?

The Geneva Conventions were authored to prevent the routine torturing and killing of POWs. When one country allows or encourages toture it means that ALL countires troops / citizens become that much more vulnerable.

kiwimac

 

[Crippen]

Sorry a long rant ( two subjects) and a tad contentious.... but I need my chest clearing>>>>>>>

One thing you need to know, Crippen : there is NO law at war. There never was, and never will be.
There is NO law at war. Don't forget it.

I can only imagin some of the sights seen in war. But please don't patronize me or give me a virtual 'pat on the head' as if I know F**k all about anything.
To start with, I wouldn't be posting on a WW2 site, nor have a love interest in machines of 'mass murder' ( ie the Lancs bomber), if I didn't see the need for armed forces and war. Whilst there are folk in the world intent on greed, power and domination, there is a need for defence.
And if you want to know could I kill.... sure, without doubt, no question... I am very sure I could (if I had to*).
As for terrorism being terrified M8, you don't have to go to war to have your bones broken and be abused in everyway and shape possible, I ( like many others) endured it for five years, at the hands of a ' loving husband'. (*Character building ).
I also sit on a panel (weekly) which determins care orders (as to which kids are taken from their parents and which remain), I have to work with these parents on a daily bases.... sure I would dearly love to terrorise them for what they do ( and there are thousands of them.... not just an odd one here and there), but! I have to learn to like them and get them close and 'change them' with a smile on my face........ for their kids sake. The alternative.... no law made yet to rip out their reproductive organs... so they would 'carry on' with the following five kids they produce.
No where near the scale you talk about I know, but please don't think I have no understanding of 'anything' ( oh yes you did imply that).
I wanted troops to go into Iraq, not because of WOMD or to catch 'him', but to stop the torture to the ordinary folk like you and I. As being raped by a broken bottle and other such lovelyness, in my book just aint acceptable. ( subtle link to next subject coming up)
I believe that 90% of folk in 'all' countries, just want the same as 'us', muslims ain't after taking our country or our 'Christmas'. It is insecure governments and middle/upper class snobs that inflict political correctness upon us (proof....look where imigrants are placed in housing....not in upper/middle class housing areas), put the blame squarly at government doors not ordinary folk... what ever their race.
The dole ( welfare) breeds alot of lazyness and bleeds our country(ies) system dry, if welfare wasn't 'so' easy and folk had to work 'towards' it, it would not only sort the lazy gits out who abuse it, but also put off those people who want to come into 'any' counrty for a free ride.
****************
Sometimes we want to judge others how we do, to justify 'why' we do the things we do. Be it seeing the terrorist in others and refusing to see the terrorist in ourselves.>>>>
ie ...is chopping the fingers off someone to obtain a result, really any different than driving a plane into a building to gain a result. Where is this fine line we cross ?!
Here endeth my rant... chest clear and only lovely thoughts from now on.... thanks for the opportunity to rant. Come backs welcome, but I will not respond... said all I wish now.
Sorry Les if you felt I was having a dig at you... I wasn't.... kisses and virtual hugs to ya >>>> off to talk about music now... calming stuff is music. (excuse spelling...cant be bovered).

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

I like that word...


Bovered!

 

[Crippen]

It's very Mancs ( Manchester), ta hun

 

[GermansRGeniuses]

One thing...


Is "Shire" pronounced 'Shy-err' or 'Sheer'?


I heard someone say the latter on TV and thought it was wrong, I know it as "Shy-err"

 

[Medvedya]

Urm, when said in relation to a county it would go Lanca-sha or Hertford-sha. Said on it's own like 'The Shire' as in the Hobbit, it would be Shy-err' so you're quite right.

Another thing is that places like Farnborough or Peterborough or Edinburgh, burgh being a Scottish spelling of borough are pronounced Farnbra, Peterbra, and Edinbra. But Borough, a tube station on the Northern Line, is spoken as written.

There are loads of other little traps, for example, Berkeley is a little village just north of here, and is pronounced 'Barkley'. Were you to say it as is reads, people would confuse it with the eminent university. Talking of top flight uni's, Oxford would be spoken as 'Oxfud'. I could think of loads if I put my mind to it.

Not that confusing I hope!

 

[Nonskimmer]

Duuuuhhh!!

 

[Medvedya]

Yeah, it's quite interesting when you browse through a book of place names, okay, for example 'Halifax' comes from 'Haliflex' that a word used in the 12th Century and meaning 'Holy flax field'

Halifax, Nova Scotia was named after the Earl of Halifax - but I guess you already know that one! What I've just looked up here is that most of your city was completely trashed in 1917 when an ammunition ship blew up!