vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
BRILLIANT!
Aviation myths that will not die
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BRILLIANT!
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Wiki says "true"
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
From Wiki;
"He signed numerous orders of dubious legality under the laws of war. The most infamous were the Commissar Order (which stipulated that Soviet political commissars were to be shot on sight) and the Night and Fog Decree (which called for the forced disappearance of resistance fighters and other political prisoners in Germany's occupied territories). Another was the order that French pilots of the Normandie-Niemen squadron be executed rather than be made prisoners of war."
"He signed numerous orders of dubious legality under the laws of war. The most infamous were the Commissar Order (which stipulated that Soviet political commissars were to be shot on sight) and the Night and Fog Decree (which called for the forced disappearance of resistance fighters and other political prisoners in Germany's occupied territories). Another was the order that French pilots of the Normandie-Niemen squadron be executed rather than be made prisoners of war."
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
"On 21May 1944 Keitel received a note from WFST to the effect that Hitler had decided that enemy fliers who had been forced down should be shot without court-martial, if. they had engaged in "acts of terror". Keitel wrote on the note "Please arrange for order to be drafted. K". (731-PS)
By 4 June 1944 Jodl and Warlimont were ready to go ahead with formulating the plans. Goering was to be asked what actions of enemy fliers should be punishable by death; the Airmen's Reception Camp at Oberursel was to be told which fliers should be delivered to the SD; and the Foreign Office was to be kept advised. (737-PS)"
"On 17 June 1944 Keitel wrote to the Foreign Office to ask their approval of the proposed measure and the agreed definition of "Acts of Terror" (730-PS). On the same day Keitel wrote to Goering to ask for his approval of the definitions of "Acts of Terror", and also to ask that he give verbal instructions to the Commandant of the camp at Oberursel to hand over fliers guilty of such acts to the SD. Both Keitel and Jodl initialled this letter (729-PS). Goering replied that fliers not guilty of acts of terror must be protected, and suggested that such matters be handled by the courts. (732-PS)"
Wilhelm Keitel, Nuremberg Charges, 1945
By 4 June 1944 Jodl and Warlimont were ready to go ahead with formulating the plans. Goering was to be asked what actions of enemy fliers should be punishable by death; the Airmen's Reception Camp at Oberursel was to be told which fliers should be delivered to the SD; and the Foreign Office was to be kept advised. (737-PS)"
"On 17 June 1944 Keitel wrote to the Foreign Office to ask their approval of the proposed measure and the agreed definition of "Acts of Terror" (730-PS). On the same day Keitel wrote to Goering to ask for his approval of the definitions of "Acts of Terror", and also to ask that he give verbal instructions to the Commandant of the camp at Oberursel to hand over fliers guilty of such acts to the SD. Both Keitel and Jodl initialled this letter (729-PS). Goering replied that fliers not guilty of acts of terror must be protected, and suggested that such matters be handled by the courts. (732-PS)"
Wilhelm Keitel, Nuremberg Charges, 1945
So the Nurenberg charges don't mention Normandie-Niemen at all.
Why single out this French regiment ? There were Polish and Czech units as well in VVS.
Why not French, Polish, Czech units serving in RAF ?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Because Normandie-Niemen was a thorn in the German's side.
The Groupe de Chasse 3 was highly decorated for it's service and successes. In addition, quite a few of it's pilots were well decorated, too.
The Kohler
Airman
I have two myths to share. Both are in regards to the RAF and USAAF bombing of Dresden on February 13 and 14, 1945. These myths are often mentioned by right wing folks around the yearly anniversary.
- More than a quarter million Germans, mostly fugitives died during this three wave attack. Sometimes, even higher numbers of victims are mentioned.
- USAAF fighters strafed civilians in and around Dresden during the 2/14/45 attack.
And they were both started and promoted by the immediate post war government of the GDR which was anything but right wing
The first was achieved by simply and crudely adding a zero to the existing contemporary reports, the second an extrapolation of the facts of some actions which did involve US fighters in the area, at the time, though not intentionally strafing civilians.
Cheers
Steve
So were lots of other units, that doesn't wash with me.
Keitel clearly signed orders dealing with allied airmen in general, I see no evidence that any particular unit was singled out. The idea that one was is a typical extrapolation or interpretation of known facts to suit another end, absolutely typical roots for this kind of myth to grow on. A little dash of truth makes it all the more plausible.
Unless someone shows some specific evidence then the proposition that Keitel signed an order to the effect that "Aviators Normandie (Niemen) shall be executed on capture" is busted!
Cheers
Steve
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Once in a while, I even come across someone who's using Goebbel's press release almost verbatim.
He issued a press release immediately following the bombings, claiming the city was a cultural, non-military target with over 200,000 deaths and used a small girl victim's photograph in the release. The casualty figure in Goebbel's media release was literally pulled out of the air, as the city was still burning when his release went to press.
The Kohler
Airman
And they were both started and promoted by the immediate post war government of the GDR which was anything but right wing
The first was achieved by simply and crudely adding a zero to the existing contemporary reports, the second an extrapolation of the facts of some actions which did involve US fighters in the area, at the time, though not intentionally strafing civilians.
Cheers
Steve
I beg to differ, at least partially, S stona .
In the German Democratic Republic, the official number of victims was 35,000. Sometimes a much higher number was offered but these was almost always used to blame the USA and to a lesser extend the UK as "Klassenfeind". And you are right, the GRD was not right wing. But after the end of the cold war, a relative high number of Neo-Nazis appeared, especially in the State of Saxony.
Correct, Goebbels used a number of several hundred thousand victims in a press release. However, on March 22, 1945, the chief of civil police Berlin reported 18,375 deaths and made an assumption that the final number might be 25,000 including foreigner.
During 2004, Dresden's Mayor Rossberg summoned a commission of historians in order to prepare an official report about the February 1945 bombing raid. This commission came to the conclusion that the number of deaths from the February 13/14 attack must be between 22,700 and 25,000. They also debunked the stories of the manhunts by escort fighters within the vicinity of Dresden. This report, in German only, can be found here: http://www.dresden.de/media/pdf/infoblaetter/Historikerkommission_Dresden1945_Abschlussbericht_V1_14a.pdf
Also one of the best sources about Dresden during WWII is Goetz Bergander's book "Dresden im Luftkrieg: Vorgeschichte – Zerstoerung – Folgen. ISBN: 9783453021778. Unfortunatly this book is in German only.
It was not my intention to occupy this thread with the destruction of Dresden, but this topic is very irrational discussed in Germany. And no, I'm not a German.
Cheers.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
And the nearby marshaling yards are often overlooked, Dresden being an important rail hub because of it's geographical location.
Alot of research showed that there were a great deal of refugees at the time of the bombing (many of whom perished in the town square), who were fleeing the advance of the Red Army, but one thing that is almost always over-looked, is that the Wehrmacht and other units were present, as they were streaming through the city and nearby region as the eastern and south-eastern fronts were collapsing.
So in looking at the overall picture and the inaccuracies that persist after all these years, it seems that Dr. Goebbel's ministry of disinformation was far more effective than even he could imagine.
Probably the best and fairly recent (last ten years or so) book in English is Frederick Taylor's "Dresden: Tuesday, February 14, 1945" which draws substantially on Bergander's work, among others.
I can't check (I'm in Barcelona and my books are in Birmingham!) but I believe that Taylor found that all US Fighters involved on the 14th were under orders to stay with the bombers on the way in and that one Group (356th) did report combat over Dresden with the Luftwaffe. This started at altitude but some aircraft did fly low along the Elbe valley and over the city, they were not however engaging targets on the ground. This might be the grain of truth that has germinated into the myth of low level attacks following eye witness testimony and publication of such by Irving et alter. It was all thoroughly debunked by Schnatz over fifteen years ago. Unfortunately some will cling to eye witness testimonies as reliable, and there are many supporting the strafings, even when they are unsupported by any other evidence.
Once released from their escort duties, on withdrawal, (this could be as much as two hours after the bombing) the fighters did indeed descend and strafe their usual targets of opportunity. The nearest to Dresden any of these low level attacks can be traced is about 100 miles to the west of the city.
Cheers
Steve
I can't check (I'm in Barcelona and my books are in Birmingham!) but I believe that Taylor found that all US Fighters involved on the 14th were under orders to stay with the bombers on the way in and that one Group (356th) did report combat over Dresden with the Luftwaffe. This started at altitude but some aircraft did fly low along the Elbe valley and over the city, they were not however engaging targets on the ground. This might be the grain of truth that has germinated into the myth of low level attacks following eye witness testimony and publication of such by Irving et alter. It was all thoroughly debunked by Schnatz over fifteen years ago. Unfortunately some will cling to eye witness testimonies as reliable, and there are many supporting the strafings, even when they are unsupported by any other evidence.
Once released from their escort duties, on withdrawal, (this could be as much as two hours after the bombing) the fighters did indeed descend and strafe their usual targets of opportunity. The nearest to Dresden any of these low level attacks can be traced is about 100 miles to the west of the city.
Cheers
Steve
drgondog
Major
Dresden M/Y was the specific of the 1st AD for both Feb 14 and 15, dropping 771 tons and 461 tons respectively. Part of the problem was combined visual bombing and H2X.
Nobody in 8th FC was stupid enough to look for strafing targets near the city as flak concentrations were notoriously strong around all major cities, particularly as the defense perimeter had shrunk enabling a 2X concentration of light flak all around central Germany.
Nobody in 8th FC was stupid enough to look for strafing targets near the city as flak concentrations were notoriously strong around all major cities, particularly as the defense perimeter had shrunk enabling a 2X concentration of light flak all around central Germany.
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
din my father's papers was an article which was more like a letter to an editor. this was supposedly penned by a bomber pilot who participated in one of the Dresden bombings. I would have to dig through the papers again to see if the author gives his name and unit. Basically what he said was " I was tasked with bombing the marshaling yards and that is indeed, what we hit." IIRC he sites that there were many industries and dwellings within close proximity and so he could see how some were hit but his orders and those of the rest of his unit were the railways and nothing else. but he also make a claim that leaflets were dropped at least once over the city announcing that the city would be bombed. how often were leaflets like this dropped? I found a couple sites that mention that they were...
The bombing of Dresden | About Dresden
The bombing of Dresden | About Dresden
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
There were a great deal of leaflets dropped on Germany during the course of the war, but I have not heard of any instances where the people were warned prior to a target being attacked.
This would have allowed the Luftwaffe to mount a solid defense with disasterous results for the bombers.
This would have allowed the Luftwaffe to mount a solid defense with disasterous results for the bombers.
