B-25 weapons thread

[Micdrow]

Interesting picture, guessing I found on web at some point. Note position of gun camera. Seems low compared to some I have seen mounted. Also not sure if just not installed or being cleaned and not put back in for the 50 caliber machine guns in nose plus it looks to have only one blister pack installed which I new was done at some point but never found any photos showing it.

 

[CATCH 22]

Some of the problems and changes that where found when the Mark III Mitchell came out in Australia.

View attachment 601871

For those who might wonder, where are the 2 turrets of a Mitchel III (B-25J), which doesn't have a ventral (belly) turret: Bendix 'R' is the top (dorsal) turret and Bell M.7 (I've seen this written M-7 too) is in fact the tail gunner position. It is a turret indeed.

Cheers!

 

[CATCH 22]

Interesting picture, guessing I found on web at some point. Note position of gun camera. Seems low compared to some I have seen mounted. Also not sure if just not installed or being cleaned and not put back in for the 50 caliber machine guns in nose plus it looks to have only one blister pack installed which I new was done at some point but never found any photos showing it.

View attachment 601878

Hi Paul,
I'm not sure what exactly do you call "gun camera", but the 2 openings in the nose are in fact for the 0.5 guns not for a camera. Or maybe I don't see it?
This a/c is from the 41-st BG. undergoing maintenance on Tarawa (Gilbert Islands) and the guns are not installed. The blister guns are also missing. I believe there are some kind of tubes in all gun positions - see the detail photo below.
This is in fact the modification called B-25G-12 by some authors (I wrote several times about it). It was done on a large scale in mod-centers and it is not a local field modification. The blister guns are on the starboard side only.
This photo is one of many done by a war correspondent in January 1944. I have some of them (from Fold3) and since they are official war photos (owned by the government) there are no copyrights for them. I'll upload them here in their full size.

Cheers!

 

[Micdrow]

Sorry bad choice of wording on what I wondered was could a gun camera be installed on the left side where the arrow is pointing. Those round tubes from the look of it are way bigger than they would need to be even for a field modification. They looks way bigger to the point it looks almost the same size as the 75mm cannon for the outer ring. With your zoomed in shot I can make out the barrel sleeve inside the hole on the right nose gun. I see it has a name on the side of this aircraft but can't quite make it out.

The below picture is what I am use to seeing for cut outs for the G and H model. Of course the H model has the two center guns higher up.

The below is the K-24 camera type that I thought could fit there by size as it seems pretty close to same diameter as the one in the picture below but never saw a mount that low and first thing that comes to my mind on how big that circle is.

Sorry still say you should write a book, To me it seems like a lot history missing out there on all the different types of field modifications and odd ball trials of the B-25.

By chance Yves you wouldn't happen to know on how many rounds of ammo the Pappy gun strafer carried for the 20mm cannon installed on some of the aircraft?

 

[CATCH 22]

They look way bigger to the point it looks almost the same size as the 75mm cannon for the outer ring. With your zoomed in shot I can make out the barrel sleeve inside the hole on the right nose gun. I see it has a name on the side of this aircraft but can't quite make it out.

You got it, Paul!
These tubes are in fact spent 75mm cases. This information comes from Norman Avery's book again (page 114). They used the cases as covers for the 0.5 guns against the fine sand on the Gilbert islands. Below are 2 photos with those covers:

And the same a/c as above without the covers:

I believe what we see in the very first photo you posted are short stubs attached to the nose and the "covers" have been attached to them after the guns have been installed. Of interest are the gun barrels in a lighter tone. I don't know what is the reason for it but on the next photo one can see that the whole gun looks like painted over (it's obviously not just dust):

Unfortunately I don't know the name of the a/c you've posted (Lil something) and couldn't find it in the rest of the photos from Tarawa I have.
I don't remember any details about the modified strafers with a 20-mm gun. I'll check some sources, but I don't think I've seen a good description of this modification.
Cheers!

 

[Micdrow]

You got it, Paul!
These tubes are in fact spent 75mm cases. This information comes from Norman Avery's book again (page 114). They used the cases as covers for the 0.5 guns against the fine sand on the Gilbert islands. Below are 2 photos with those covers:
View attachment 602171
View attachment 602172
And the same a/c as above without the covers:
View attachment 602173
I believe what we see in the very first photo you posted are short stubs attached to the nose and the "covers" have been attached to them after the guns have been installed. Of interest are the gun barrels in a lighter tone. I don't know what is the reason for it but on the next photo one can see that the whole gun looks like painted over (it's obviously not just dust):
View attachment 602174
Unfortunately I don't know the name of the a/c you've posted (Lil something) and couldn't find it in the rest of the photos from Tarawa I have.
I don't remember any details about the modified strafers with a 20-mm gun. I'll check some sources, but I don't think I've seen a good description of this modification.
Cheers!

Feeling stupid again LOL, I have seen your pictures of the cannon shells on the 50's as dust covers but never put two and two together. If you go to Thread 166, 199 and thread 200 you can find the modified B-25's with 4 fifty caliber machine guns plus the 20mm cannon. Thread 166 is the only aircraft I have been able to find so far that I remember even mentioning this configuration and was really curious as to amount of ammo it had for the 20mm cannon.

Also in the book Air combat at 20 feet Selected Missions from a strafer pilot's diary by Garret Middlebrook he mentions at least twice flying B-25's equipped with the 4 machine gun's plus 20mm cannon in the nose. No aircraft name or serial number of the aircraft unfortunately.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Very cool info gents!

 

[Micdrow]

Yves,

I think I figured out that its Lil Lynn of the 820th bomb squadron, Note also the cannon shells on the guns. Second photo comes from this link 820Photos1

 

[Micdrow]

I've been reading the records of the 11th bombardment squadron and found these quotes there that where interesting to say the least.

It was the custom to carry six 40-lb. fragmentation bombs in the rear end of each ship. These were in addition to the regular bomb load and an after-thought directed towards further discomfiture of the sly enemy. These bombs were thrown out by the bottom gunner at a signal of some sort, usually given by interphone. The signal being given, he would pull the pins and toss them out the camera hatch as quickly as possible, then return to his gunnery posts.

In the next two weeks new bomb racks were installed in each plane Lt. Robert Reese of the Ordnance Section had been working for some time on an idea by which the frag bombs could be carried and dropped more conveniently than by the old hand method. A large rack used by the Chinese served as a model, but Lt. Reese's adaptation was a small compact unit which could be installed snugly in the rear of a B-25's bomb bay with no interference to the normal bomb load and could be taken out quickly should bomb bay tanks need to be installed. The racks carried ten frag bombs hanging nose clown and were dropped by the lower gunner from the radio compartment

The only bombs, besides those flown over the Hump by the transports, were supplied by the various caches where the Chinese had hidden away over a course of years a varied treasure of explosives of all weights, makes and measures. This miscellany included American 500-lb. demolition, Chinese 100-kilogram demolition and incendiary, and other weights and types, French SO kilogram demolition, Russian demolition and incendiary in weights and sizes ranging from 200 kilogram down to 50 kilogram bombs which were really artillery shells with fins and shackle fittings. Ordnance was continually at work cutting off and welding on to these misfits so that when the demand came for bombs, they would be ready to fit the shackles and bomb bays of the B-25's.

There were no extra personnel in the 11th so that there was no one to be used for the special purpose of loading bombs. The duty of loading each ship fell to the crew of that ship for the mission intended. Every combat member was subject, at any hour of the day or night, to sudden order requiring the loading of bombs, a briefing, and then a mission. If it should happen that several missions were run in a day, including possibly a flight to an advanced base, it might mean some 15 hours flying, with a few bomb loadings thrown in between and no meal between a 0430 breakfast and a possible evening meal. At some advanced bases it was necessary to awaken at 0300 after getting to bed at 0200, and night raids from the industrious enemy sometimes broke into these few precious hours. It may have been noted that the operations of the 11th were spotty. characterized by several weeks' activity and several weeks' seeming inactivity. This was due to several peculiar characteristics of the theatre in which the Squadron operated.

 

[Micdrow]

With experience combat crews in China like in the Pacific made changes to improve the B-25's basic armament. As in the Pacific the crews in China found that the Bendix ventral turret was useless. Crews in China removed the turret, leaving a 30-inch hole in the bottom of the aircraft. They placed an L shaped steel angle iron across the hole and rigged up a mounting for two 30 caliber machine guns. For additional protection, the ground crew cut holes in the two small observation windows on the sides of the fuselage, just behind the wing and inserted a ball socket to hold a 30-caliber machine gun in each window. Below you can see this configuration, especially the side mounted guns. They also would cut a hole in the plexiglass tail to install a 30-caliber machine gun or stinger.

Picture below really shows off the 30 caliber machine gun position. Photo source B-25C 41-13168 of the 490th Bomb Squadron, 341st BG in CBI 1944 | World War Photos

 

[Micdrow]

I was going back through Snautzer01 thread on B-25's when I noticed this on page 14 in thread 262. Link: North American B-25 Mitchell

Notice under the wing, It shows the best blister pack I have seen so far under the wing including the reinforced skin on the fuselage.

 

[CATCH 22]

I was going back through Snautzer01 thread on B-25's when I noticed this on page 14 in thread 262. Link: North American B-25 Mitchell
Notice under the wing, It shows the best blister pack I have seen so far under the wing including the reinforced skin on the fuselage.

Check my post #277 - I tried to combine the information in the 2 threads about this photo.
Cheers!

 

[CATCH 22]

With experience combat crews in China like in the Pacific made changes to improve the B-25's basic armament. As in the Pacific the crews in China found that the Bendix ventral turret was useless. Crews in China removed the turret, leaving a 30-inch hole in the bottom of the aircraft. They placed an L shaped steel angle iron across the hole and rigged up a mounting for two 30 caliber machine guns. For additional protection, the ground crew cut holes in the two small observation windows on the sides of the fuselage, just behind the wing and inserted a ball socket to hold a 30-caliber machine gun in each window. Below you can see this configuration, especially the side mounted guns. They also would cut a hole in the plexiglass tail to install a 30-caliber machine gun or stinger.

View attachment 602915

Picture below really shows off the 30 caliber machine gun position. Photo source B-25C 41-13168 of the 490th Bomb Squadron, 341st BG in CBI 1944 | World War Photos
View attachment 602916

And of course many of those a/cs received additional nose armament (one can see more than 2 guns protruding in the above photos) with the unique 5- or 6-gun field modifications.
6-gun nose, 490-st BS./341-st BG.:

5-gun nose, 491-st BS./341-st BG.:

Cheers!

 

[Micdrow]

Check my post #277 - I tried to combine the information in the 2 threads about this photo.
Cheers!

Yeah wish there was an easier way to keep things together as we add more. As far as the nose configurations in China there seems to be a ton. I have both the outside and inside pictures for the first picture in post 333. So many modifications and so little time. Then again this was supposed to be my retirement project when I retired. Only 15 more years to work LOL

 

[CATCH 22]

Yeah wish there was an easier way to keep things together as we add more....

You are right - a single thread is not enough to contain all those B-25 modifications, weapons and armament. Some of the posts (mine incl.) do not add to the previous one but go into a completely new direction. As a result the information "floats" all over the place. I usually go back and forth through the older posts to refresh my memory. Lately I do need a "refreshment" more often than before.....

 

[Micdrow]

So far only place I have found this manual. Would be pretty cool to read it. WWII N AMERICAN AVIATION B-25 8 GUN NOSE MOD. MANUAL | #37465925

 

[Micdrow]

Some may find this interesting. Pages are from Mediterranean Allied Tactical Airforce Air intelligence bulletin.

 

[Micdrow]

Below is what the Chaff looked like.

 

[Donivanp]

 

[CATCH 22]

Some may find this interesting. Pages are from Mediterranean Allied Tactical Airforce Air intelligence bulletin.

Very interesting bulletin describing in the first 2 paragraphs the modifications we already discussed before: the tail gunner and the waist gunners. The 2 different variations are those of the Warner Robins Air Logistic Centre (GA) (initially for the 321-st BG.) and those done in the Sidi Ahmed Air Base/depot, Bizerte Airfield.
Paul, you've already posted photos with some of these modifications and I summarized them in my post #312.
And yes, it was in the 57-th BW. (essentially the 12-th USAAF bombardment wing) where those changes have been made and used for the first time!
Cheers!