B-29's versus Luftwaffe

[Soren]

Hitler certainly knew nothing of it Bill, and neither did the German a/c designers. Maybe the Abwehr did, but there is no proof they did, you're just speculating.

But lets assume the Germans did know about it, they apparently then weren't very concerned about it as it probably seemed it wasn't going to be in the ETO any time soon.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

See above - if you are correct, as hard as it is to believe, then the German intelligence teams in US and UK and Middle East were totally clueless. Most of us do not hold that opinion.

Now, here is the reality. 8th AF made a decison in early 1944 that bringing in B-29s were more disruptive than potentially beneficial - primarily because extensive work needed to be accomplished to lengthen runways and modify service depots and base hangers to take the B-29.. not to mention Wing size deployment was not feasible until summer 1944 at the earliest.

It was agreed that deployment to ETO would start in spring 1945 if needed... and even that decision was recinded in fall 1944.

Well put Bill - I was going to mention that B-29 deployed to the UK - I remember seeing a photo of it and if I remember correctly the entire aircraft was painted OD. Does any one else have info on this?

 

[Soren]

So let me get this straight. There are people here now that are of the opinion that the Abwehr had fully infiltrated the British US military intelligence while at the same time others say that the British had all Abwehr agents in the UK captured and knew where every single one in the US was ?? I've argued against this before.

 

[syscom3]

The Germans were not clueless about the B29, because the AAF had publicized it as early as 1942.

Plus the B29's were bombing Japan in middle 1944 and they would have told the Germans about it.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The Germans were not clueless about the B29, because the AAF had publicized it as early as 1942.

Plus the B29's were bombing Japan in middle 1944 and they would have told the Germans about it.

I'm sure Germany had an Embassy in Tokyo........

 

[Erich]

most likely the higher LW intel knew of the remote possibilities of the B-29 onboard 8th or 15th AF command, but the average Hans pilot flying single and twin engine bomber destroyer missions knew nothing - that is my point, there was obviously nothing done in a hurried up program to face what was to come, although numerous failed experimentation was to be selected to try and build up moral in the doomed LW pilot cadre and for the sake of the German civilian population.

guys we are argueing ourselves into the ground with another what-if. Let's be real had the B-29 come onboard in the ETO it would further inflicted the carnage on the ground, would of it quicken the fall of the Reich who knows

 

[drgondog]

most likely the higher LW intel knew of the remote possibilities of the B-29 onboard 8th or 15th AF command, but the average Hans pilot flying single and twin engine bomber destroyer missions knew nothing - that is my point, there was obviously nothing done in a hurried up program to face what was to come, although numerous failed experimentation was to be selected to try and build up moral in the doomed LW pilot cadre and for the sake of the German civilian population.

guys we are argueing ourselves into the ground with another what-if. Let's be real had the B-29 come onboard in the ETO it would further inflicted the carnage on the ground, would of it quicken the fall of the Reich who knows

I would say this sums it up pretty well.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

agree...........

 

[drgondog]

So let me get this straight. There are people here now that are of the opinion that the Abwehr had fully infiltrated the British US military intelligence while at the same time others say that the British had all Abwehr agents in the UK captured and knew where every single one in the US was ?? I've argued against this before.

No - that is not what is being said.

A casual stroll with camera in hand in the countryside near the airfields I just talked about, plus the ability to follow a new and very large moving four engine bomber with said camera, and a means to develop and smuggle film was not above Abwehr abilities.

Cutting out Life Magazine articles and smuggling those to Mexico was similarly in the Abwehr's bag of tricks.

ZERO infiltration required.

It is just not plausible that Hitler was not aware of it, ditto for Fatso. Lack of concern or disinclination to re setting priorities is also plausible...

As Erich said, it is a null argument as it didn't come to 8th AF during WWII.

 

[drgondog]

Well put Bill - I was going to mention that B-29 deployed to the UK - I remember seeing a photo of it and if I remember correctly the entire aircraft was painted OD. Does any one else have info on this?

pg 205 The Mighty Eighth War Manual by Freeman shows the 29 at Glatton on March 11, 1944. OD with gray bottom.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

pg 205 The Mighty Eighth War Manual by Freeman shows the 29 at Glatton on March 11, 1944. OD with gray bottom.

Thanks!

 

[Soren]

No - that is not what is being said.

A casual stroll with camera in hand in the countryside near the airfields I just talked about, plus the ability to follow a new and very large moving four engine bomber with said camera, and a means to develop and smuggle film was not above Abwehr abilities.

Cutting out Life Magazine articles and smuggling those to Mexico was similarly in the Abwehr's bag of tricks.

ZERO infiltration required.

Oh I don't doubt the ability of the Abwehr Bill, they had some of the best trained agents in the world and they knew about most new upcoming Allied a/c designs having fully infiltrated the US a/c industry, but I just see two conflicting arguments thats all.

The point however is that the B-29 wasn't seen as making it to the ETO by the Germans at any rate, and no a/c designers knew anything about it, and it even seems Hitler Goering were also uninformed. The Abwehr had a lots of classified material not known of by the Führer.

 

[drgondog]

Oh I don't doubt the ability of the Abwehr Bill, they had some of the best trained agents in the world and they knew about most new upcoming Allied a/c designs having fully infiltrated the US a/c industry, but I just see two conflicting arguments thats all.

Then we can safel now assume they knew all about the B-29.

The point however is that the B-29 wasn't seen as making it to the ETO by the Germans at any rate, and no a/c designers knew anything about it, and it even seems Hitler Goering were also uninformed. The Abwehr had a lots of classified material not known of by the Führer.

And you know this how?

 

[delcyros]

I think we have reached a point in the discussion where two things are matched together:
One aspect: The significant superiority of P-47/P-51 operating at high altitude in the fighter role.
The other: The B-29 beeing able to defend itselfe by high cruise alt / cruise speed and superior self defense.

I agree with the first but do question the second aspect. The Luftwaffe was able to deal with the B-17 / B-24 but it was not able to deal with the escorts in the same place.
I have seen little to convince me that the B-29 would change anything here. It would have been as vulnarable to Fw-190 in a head on firing pass as was the B-24.
The Luftwaffe get´s beaten as historically or even more while the devastation on the ground is likely beeing larger but less precise and efficient.
You likely would see a change in production priorities from G-6 to GM-1 boosted Bf-109G5 high altitude fighters and maybe some Bf-109H-1 beeing converted from -G5 airframes as an interim measure long before the advent of the Ta-152H (they have been operationally tested in France 1944, while production was to begin in mid 1944 before beeing cancelled in favour to lower alt variants).
Is the P-51B/D really that superior to an GM-1 boosted Bf-109G5 or Bf-109h?

 

[Marcel]

Hitler certainly knew nothing of it Bill, and neither did the German a/c designers. Maybe the Abwehr did, but there is no proof they did, you're just speculating.

But lets assume the Germans did know about it, they apparently then weren't very concerned about it as it probably seemed it wasn't going to be in the ETO any time soon.

Dutch aviation enthousiasts were better then the German Intelligence:

I find that difficult to believe Soren. They must have known. I have a simple Dutch book about aviation, printed in 1943. It does describe the B29. Remember it was written in occupied country. How could this writer know and the German authorities not? Could it be that hey knew about it and ignored the info?

 

[Glider]

So let me get this straight. There are people here now that are of the opinion that the Abwehr had fully infiltrated the British US military intelligence while at the same time others say that the British had all Abwehr agents in the UK captured and knew where every single one in the US was ?? I've argued against this before.

Its true, you have argued this one out before with a similar lack of success, mainly due to an almost total lack of supporting evidence.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Flyboyj,

>The aircraft was operational a few years earlier

Hm, that looks like a somwhat unrealistic kind of "what if" assumption to me.

If you re-read the original post by Ralphwiggum, it doesn't actually make any statement on B-29 numbers equalling the historical ones of the B-17 and B-24 but simply suggested availability of the type without static a specific time or a certain numerical strength.

Accordingly, there migth be a way to satisfy this suggestion with a minimum of anachronistic assumptions: Due to the (historic) priority of the European theatre of operations over the Pacific, we could assume that the B-29 upon reaching operational status was (ahistorically) directed to the 8th Air Force, which would receive the total production of the type for use against Germany, augmenting the historically bomber force (or replacing parts of it, for example because the Liberator force is reduced in favour of the Pacific).

If the B-29s attacked the Reich, some Luftwaffe units would indeed have to fight "8th airforce Superfortresses instead of B-17's and Liberators" as Ralph suggested, though the latters would still be operating in the same theatre.

In my opinion, this might be a more interesting "what if" to think about because it doesn't require quite as great a leap as the "B-29 a few years earlier" scenario.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[HoHun]

Hi Jabberwocky,

>There a full upload of its various components at: Army Air Forces Statistical Digest - World War II

Thanks a lot, that's really good stuff!

Table 74 on this page has some information on B-29 production:

List of Tables: Aircraft and Equipment

Except for the three prototypes, 92 B-29s were accepted in 1943, 1161 in 1944 and 2507 in 1945 (until August).

Table 87 shows that there were 145 very heavy bombers "on hand" in "overseas theatres" in April 1944, increasing to 407 by December 1944 and to 1090 by VJ day.

Table 101 lists the total combat losses for the B-29 as 501 first-line aircraft until the end of the war.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[drgondog]

I think we have reached a point in the discussion where two things are matched together:
One aspect: The significant superiority of P-47/P-51 operating at high altitude in the fighter role.
The other: The B-29 beeing able to defend itselfe by high cruise alt / cruise speed and superior self defense.

I agree with the first but do question the second aspect. The Luftwaffe was able to deal with the B-17 / B-24 but it was not able to deal with the escorts in the same place.
I have seen little to convince me that the B-29 would change anything here. It would have been as vulnarable to Fw-190 in a head on firing pass as was the B-24.

I tend to agree. I don't really believe the B-29 would somehow miraculously resist 30mm Mk108 or 103's in a head on pass by Me 109s or Fw 190s simply by virtue of higher altitude and speed as well as improved armament and computing sights.

The Luftwaffe get´s beaten as historically or even more while the devastation on the ground is likely beeing larger but less precise and efficient.
You likely would see a change in production priorities from G-6 to GM-1 boosted Bf-109G5 high altitude fighters and maybe some Bf-109H-1 beeing converted from -G5 airframes as an interim measure long before the advent of the Ta-152H (they have been operationally tested in France 1944, while production was to begin in mid 1944 before beeing cancelled in favour to lower alt variants).
Is the P-51B/D really that superior to an GM-1 boosted Bf-109G5 or Bf-109h?

Good question. The more important question is whether there would be more or less chance to shoot the much faster B-29s down at 30,000 feet when still escorted by the Mustangs. I personally think the 51 and 109G-6AS and -10 were close enough to the Mustang that the fight at 30K would be virtually the same as at 20K.

The next question is what does the Fw 190A7 and A8 do to gain enough time to get to say 32-35K to get into position to make a single diving head on pass and keep going down when the escort is in the area. Both of them would have been at a serious disadvantage at those altitudes.

I suspect the net effect of the B-29 arriving in the ETO in Spring 1944 would have been to first determine if the B-29s planned operational altitudes and bombloads would have been adequate given the problems experienced in the engines in PTO.

The second question would be how to allocate the existing Mustang/Lightning target escort force. B-29s operating at higher speeds and altitudes would dilute the existing coverage even more in the critical April-May timeframe.

Last - how does it truly affect the LW priorities for fighter aircraft. The G-5 and G-6 were already being handicapped with cannon gondolas (at 25K) - what would the issues be at 30K? That is another 4-5 minutes of climb and high fuel consumption just to reach bomber altitude, meaning less time to engage and/or chase if the intercept prediction is off. The Fw 190A8 was already in trouble at 25K with the BMW801.

If the B-29s failed operationally at high altitude and forced back to 25-28K like the Forts, then intercept challenges are still higher for the LW just because of speed. The 51 escort should be even more effective for having longer engagement in escort duties with improved cruise speed to and from target.

For the same reasons the P-47D should be able to perform more target escort duties - perhaps to Hamburg, Brunswick, Schweinfurt radius. At 200kts cruise for the B-29, both the P-47 and P-51 no longer have to throttle back and 'ess' to stay with the bombers.

If the latter point is true the escort potential over target for 8th AF dramatically expands much earlier in 1944 to virtually every active group in 8th FC excpet for Munich to Leipzig and Berlin ranges when only 51s and 38s can go all the way.

 

[Kurfürst]

30k?

Kurfrst - Kurz-Betriebsanleitung fr Flugzeugfhrer und Bodenpersonal fr GM 1-Anlagen in Bf 109 G.

and