Bearcat vs Corsair

[helmitsmit]

good point

 

[R Leonard]

The Bearcat could easily be beat to 10,000 feet by the English Electric Lightning. Because the said plane could easily beat a F-16 to the same altitude.

Well, geez, a 2000 hp R2800 radial versus two 13,200-pound thrust RA34R/310 turbojets. I never would have guessed. Kind of apples and oranges, n'est ce pas?

Rich

 

[lesofprimus]

The victory was a simple matter of economy, the Allies could produce more planes and throw more pilots into the air than Germany.

And that my friends, sums up the Luftwaffes downfall in a nut shell....

 

[Twitch]

That sums up everyone's downfall in a nutshell. If it wasn't for America's production capacity GB and even Russia to some extent would have been S.O.L.

 

[maxs75]

The Bearcat could easily be beat to 10,000 feet by the English Electric Lightning. Because the said plane could easily beat a F-16 to the same altitude.

From the j-aircrafts forum:

(an off topic comparison I love is a "video taped" encounter between 2 F-16's after a single engine Cessna(sp?) which was drug running. After numerous passes on the drug runner to shoot it down the F16s simply had to give up as the slow plane would simply out maneuver them each pass, it even noted if he had been an armed plane would have been able to shoot them down them being so slow trying to match him the Jets were floundering and vulnerable..........Yet which would any of us say is superior in combat?).

Max

 

[plan_D]

Does anyone else want to bring back the argument I had against Lunatic aboug the EE Lightning vs. F8F Bearcat ?

As R.L pointed out, you can't even compare the two planes. You're stating, and the source is stating, that a piston-engined plane with a climb rate of , what ? 4000 + FPM ... against a plane with an initial climb rate of 50,000 FPM ... come on, use some sense.

The Lightning does not need to warm up, so don't bring that out. The Lightning has a famous story around it ... a pilot took off and went "ballistic" (vertical) ... the air traffic asked him to contact them when he reached 10,000 feet ... he replied "Sorry, I cannot. I have passed that mark and have just passed 18,000 feet."

If anyone wants, just find me the arguments where I had to rant about the EE Lightning ... or I'll just punish EVERYONE with them again.

 

[helmitsmit]

Does anyone else want to bring back the argument I had against Lunatic aboug the EE Lightning vs. F8F Bearcat ?

As R.L pointed out, you can't even compare the two planes. You're stating, and the source is stating, that a piston-engined plane with a climb rate of , what ? 4000 + FPM ... against a plane with an initial climb rate of 50,000 FPM ... come on, use some sense.

The Lightning does not need to warm up, so don't bring that out. The Lightning has a famous story around it ... a pilot took off and went "ballistic" (vertical) ... the air traffic asked him to contact them when he reached 10,000 feet ... he replied "Sorry, I cannot. I have passed that mark and have just passed 18,000 feet."

If anyone wants, just find me the arguments where I had to rant about the EE Lightning ... or I'll just punish EVERYONE with them again.

Didn't the R.A.F do mock combats between the Spitfire Mk XIX and a Lightning in the 60s? Is there any reports on that?

 

[plan_D]

I've heard of that, but I don't have any solid evidence to back it up.

 

[helmitsmit]

me neither I found it in a book.

 

[chris mcmillin]

The Time to Climb record for the piston engined weight class of the Bearcat is held by the same F8F, N777L that holds the 3KM record. It is 91 seconds from a standing start to 3000 meters. The pilot was Lyle Shelton set at Thermal, California in 1972.

It was pretty neat to watch, the airplane was tied to a large cast concrete sewer fixture that was covered in asphalt and concrete scrap. The Bearcat's prop blast blew all of the dirt away and pulled the fixture up to the edge of the runway where it stopped on the ledge. The chains were connected to an electric switch attached to a bridle connecting the tailhook mount. When the pilot was ready with full race power and water injection on, he flashed a thumbs up and the crew chief would signal the release by a drop of his hand. The airplane was oriented on the very left side of the runway, pointed at a 45 degree angle to the right. On release the airplane bolted forward and left, accelerating in about 200 feet to 100 knots and airborne, aerodynamic controls effective and the gear coming up. The airplane accelerated down the runway to 165 knots and then the nose was raised to maintain that speed. It was like watching a car going down the freeway straight up.

This was and is a privately owned airplane and paid for by workers wages. There were no English Electric Lightnings there that day, or in my then 11 year old mind. Lightnings were Lockheed's, and there were several on my mind that day up in Santa Barbara for sale, if only the old man had had MY vision!

Chris...

 

[davparlr]

Edit: I just looked something up on the bearcat. It held the world record for fastest climb rate (10,000 feet in 91 seconds) for 30 years before it was broken by the F-16 falcon! Now that's a major plus as a dogfighter.

This is incorrect. The F8F (Rarebear) record was set for "piston powered" aircraft in 1972. The T-38 set a time to climb record of 95.74 seconds to 12,000 meters (39,372 ft.) in 1962. The F4H (phantom) set a time to climb record of 34.52 seconds to 3000 meters (9843 ft.) in 34.52 seconds, also in 1962.

 

[R Leonard]

First F8F record, climb to time, to 10000 feet was set on 22 November 1946, at 100 seconds. The next record was set the same day, again in an F8F, at 97.8 seconds.
So, if "Rarebear" beat that in 1972, and I don't doubt your statement to that effect, then that would be 26 years.

Of course, Rarebear was not a standard USN version. Both the F8Fs in 1946 were standard -1 models, armed, with no ammo though; equipped with the standard armor and self-sealing tanks and carrying 50% fuel. Both F8Fs were assigned to TacTest.

R

 

[davparlr]

First F8F record, climb to time, to 10000 feet was set on 22 November 1946, at 100 seconds. The next record was set the same day, again in an F8F, at 97.8 seconds.
So, if "Rarebear" beat that in 1972, and I don't doubt your statement to that effect, then that would be 26 years.

Of course, Rarebear was not a standard USN version. Both the F8Fs in 1946 were standard -1 models, armed, with no ammo though; equipped with the standard armor and self-sealing tanks and carrying 50% fuel. Both F8Fs were assigned to TacTest.

R

I couldn't confirm your numbers but I have no reason to doubt them. However, the statement that it wasn't beaten until the F-16 is not right. In fact, while previously mentioned T-38 and F4H numbers are official, many earlier aircraft easily passed the F8F time to climb although most were unofficial. The earliest was probably the F-86D in 1950, whose initial rate of climb was 12000 ft/min. Others were the F4D with a time of 2 minutes to 40000 ft. in 1955, and the F-104 who, in 1958, went past 10000 ft in about 41 seconds on a record setting attempt at a much higher altitude. You can throw in others I did not look up, F-100, F8U, F101, et.al.

Still an impressive number for the F8F. The F8F is a beautiful plane. I saw one fly at an airshow in Pensacola in about 1958. It was led by a P-51 who had to abort because of overheating. The weather was hot. Then, after much bragging by the Navy announcer about the superority of the air cooled Navy engines, the F8F took off an flew. But only for a few minutes, as it had to land because of overheating! Like I said, it was hot that day.

 

[R Leonard]

Yes, but comparison of pistons vs jets is apples and oranges.

 

[syscom3]

Yes, but comparison of pistons vs jets is apples and oranges.

Well said.

 

[davparlr]

Well said.

The statement was made that the F8F time to climb to 10000 was not beaten until the F-16 implying that it could best all the aircraft till then. That is incorrect. Apples and oranges comments still does not make that statement any more correct!

 

[pbfoot]

The statement was made that the F8F time to climb to 10000 was not beaten until the F-16 implying that it could best all the aircraft till then. That is incorrect. Apples and oranges comments still does not make that statement any more correct!

i even think 10000 in a 104 in 41 secs is slow did he even light the burners I personally can't count the number of times I've seen ac go verticle to fl350 in under a minute it was almost a ritual on the excercises I partook in for the last guy back for the night to do that the thought was is if I'm awake everybody will be

 

[davparlr]

i even think 10000 in a 104 in 41 secs is slow did he even light the burners I personally can't count the number of times I've seen ac go verticle to fl350 in under a minute it was almost a ritual on the excercises I partook in for the last guy back for the night to do that the thought was is if I'm awake everybody will be

That number was a eyeball interpretation of a time verses altitude chart for a successful attempt at a time to climb record to a much higher altitude. There is a large probablity of error, error would probably be in the direction you suggested.

 

[chris mcmillin]

Edit: I just looked something up on the bearcat. It held the world record for fastest climb rate (10,000 feet in 91 seconds) for 30 years before it was broken by the F-16 falcon! Now that's a major plus as a dogfighter.

This is incorrect. The F8F (Rarebear) record was set for "piston powered" aircraft in 1972. The T-38 set a time to climb record of 95.74 seconds to 12,000 meters (39,372 ft.) in 1962. The F4H (phantom) set a time to climb record of 34.52 seconds to 3000 meters (9843 ft.) in 34.52 seconds, also in 1962.

The F8F N777L wasn't called Rare Bear until 1980, it was called Phoenix 1 in 1972. Those that worked on it just called it "the Bearcat". My favorite name for it is "Able Cat", as it is a take off on the Skyraider (AD) being called "able dog".

The Bearcat had long wings for the effort, but I think it had the slow nose case. If so, it could have bettered the mark using the stock nosecase from the -26W engine for greater acceleration. I used to know what it weighs, I can't remember a number but it isn't light by any means. The engine weighs about 500 lbs more than a 2800 and the propeller is heavier too.

Chris...

 

[R Leonard]

The statement was made that the F8F time to climb to 10000 was not beaten until the F-16 implying that it could best all the aircraft till then. That is incorrect. Apples and oranges comments still does not make that statement any more correct!

Well, since you seem to want to be pedantic, "Rarebear," as pointed out, was not so named until long after the 1972 event. I'd also point out that this aircraft was NOT a true F8F having been modified in both airframe and engine. Further, eyeballing performance charts does not count when you're talking about setting records. Flights for record require continuous monitoring and recording of the event, so any guestimate one might make from a chart is strictly a WAG.

So, you can contest to your heart's content whether the record breaker was an F-16 or an F8U or any other aircraft (and, frankly, jets versus pistons, who really gives a crap), but if the aircraft in question was not actually making a flight for record, then it doesn't count. And since every plane you seem to want to drag out is a jet powered fighter, exactly what are you trying to prove . . . that there was an airplane in competition for the record prior to the F-16 cited in the post? Okay, I'll buy that as long as the aircraft was actually in competition and you aren't just picking a point on a climb chart. I am sure that the jet aircraft you named could probably have beat a climb to time record set by a R2800 powered F8F in 1946, but to my knowledge none did actually so compete, i.e., making a monitored and recorded attempt to supplant the existing record.

It is still apples and oranges to compare jet fighter performance, even for record, to piston fighter performance, just as it is also apples and oranges to compare a military equipped F8F performance to some bastardized civilian hybrid.

And as for my numbers on the 1946 record . . . it helps when I have the pilots log book for one of the actual pilots.