Best Aircraft in Many Different Roles Part II

[Civettone]

Of course it wasn't. But why did the Germans try to get faster night fighters? To dodge the Mosquito? That too. But mainly because greater speed made a better interceptor. The Ju 88C was too slow to "excell". Here I go again haha

Kris

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well you can believe that if you wish. I don't buy it.

 

[Civettone]

For a fighter the Ju 88C had a more than generous size, but this enabled it to carry both powerful armament and extensive electronic equipment. Hence it was an obvious candidate for conversion to a nightfighter. Initial operations were conducted without radars, but in late 1942 some Ju 88C-6 fighters received the Lichtenstein BC radar, later replaced by Lichtenstein C-1 and in late 1943 by Lichtenstein SN-2. Althought the Messerschmitt Bf 110 remained the most numerous nightfighter, the Ju 88C took an increasing part; it was well-liked, but actually too slow for this role. In early 1943 enough BMW 801 engines were finally available, and version of the Ju 88C with these was known as the Ju 88R.

by Emmanuel Gustin at uboat.net - Technical pages

and

Bomber types, while large enough to house a four- to five-man crew, bulky radio equipment and ample guns and ammunition in new 'solid' nose sections, were considered to be too slow to be effective night interceptors, as they also lacked manoeuvrability and were excessively heavy.

from Jerry Scutts. German night fighter aces of World War 2


But in fact I wonder why else the Germans and in fact all nations wanted faster night fighters? To a certain extent this must have been to catch enemy night fighters or else to escape from them but this surely is not always the main reason. The P-61s future was uncertain because the generals believed it was to slow compared to the Mosquito. The P-61 replaced the P-70 which was still faster than any German bomber yet had to be replaced.
But again, if that was all about combatting German night fighters, then I'm wrong and you're right!

Kris

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The only reason I could see would be to intercept other night fighters or a more probable case the Mossie, because the Ju 88 was more than fast enough for the average bomber.

 

[Vincenzo]

P-70 was fastest of cruising luftwaffe bombers but none fightning versus luftwaffe, maybe the speed was not all for a nightfighter.

 

[Juha]

On Ju 88C-6
Its speed with SN-2 antennas but without flame dampers at 11,5tons weight was at Climb and Combat power 460km/h at 4,7km. Flamedampers would have drop the speed 10-15km/h. That according to Rechlin test report dated on 27.12.43.

Juha

 

[Civettone]

You could be right Chris. Perhaps Erich can shed some light on this

Kris

 

[Civettone]

On Ju 88C-6
Its speed with SN-2 antennas but without flame dampers at 11,5tons weight was at Climb and Combat power 460km/h at 4,7km. Flamedampers would have drop the speed 10-15km/h. That according to Rechlin test report dated on 27.12.43.

Juha

Really? That's lower than I've ever heard. Then again it's Steig- und Kampfleistung and not Notleistung. No data on that Juha?

Kris

 

[Juha]

No
but at 10,8 tons max was 470km/h
onlu other speed info is at 1,15 ata, 435km/h at 11,5tons and 445km/h qt 10,8 tons and the info that SN-2 aerials cost ca 22km/h at 2250rpm/1,15 ata near SL.

Juha

 

[Civettone]

thx


Kris

 

[JDCAVE]

I wish to comment on an earlier statement that the Mosquito was not used as a day fighter. Operations: Bergen, October 4, 1944, mosquitos of 100 Group were used as day fighter support. 23 Squadron contributes 5 aircraft and 515 Sqn 7 aircraft flying from the advanced base at Dallachy
The attack on Bergen 4th October 1944 - RafCommands Forums
While I agree that this source is not as yet verified, examination of the Operations Records Books for the squadrons indicated should resolve the debate.

Jim

 

[Glider]

Your right no question but I can only think that this was an exceptional case. This must have been one of the first long range daylight raids by the RAF. 93 Halifaxes and 47 Lancasters took part in the raid and only 1 Lancaster was lost.

 

[mhuxt]

There were other raids and squadrons as well, 169 Squadron springs to mind.

 

[Cromwell]

The only reason I could see would be to intercept other night fighters or a more probable case the Mossie, because the Ju 88 was more than fast enough for the average bomber.

I still don't know why the RAF was not more enthusastic about the Village Inn system or Automatic Gun Laying Turret (AGLT)

It seemed like a really good idea to me, and when you read reports it did seem to work in practice. This would seem to be the antidote to the Ju88, Bf110 etc

Automatic Gun-Laying Turret - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[skeeter]

Admiral Yamamoto took the eternal dirt nap on April 18th, 1943. The P-38s flew on the deck over the ocean for many miles. It must have been a thrill. Then they went to altitude, freeing themselves of the extra large drop tanks that they had been carrying for the lengthy mission, intercepting two Japanese Betty bombers and numerous Zeros. The rest is history. A spectacular mission. A poetic success. And a good read if you want to look for it.

The Mosquito would have been a good camera ship to have along on the mission.

 

[mhuxt]

Admiral Yamamoto took the eternal dirt nap on April 18th, 1943. The P-38s flew on the deck over the ocean for many miles. It must have been a thrill. Then they went to altitude, freeing themselves of the extra large drop tanks that they had been carrying for the lengthy mission, intercepting two Japanese Betty bombers and numerous Zeros. The rest is history. A spectacular mission. A poetic success. And a good read if you want to look for it.

The Mosquito would have been a good camera ship to have along on the mission.

I norrmally stay away from coulda woulda shoulda posts, and I have no wish to allow a classic interception to turn into an unseemly mud-flinging exercise. But for the record, the Mosquito F.II would have got there quicker with more.

 

[Cromwell]

I norrmally stay away from coulda woulda shoulda posts, and I have no wish to allow a classic interception to turn into an unseemly mud-flinging exercise. But for the record, the Mosquito F.II would have got there quicker with more.

How about if it had been a mixed-mission and the Mossie pilots had to stand in the corner and count to 10 and then say, "ready or not here we come" ... and then got in their planes ? ( Sorry, just being silly - again )

But it is actually a good point - people forget that the later versions of the Mossie, with the boosted Merlins and the Paddle Blades really were some of the fastest planes of WW2 at most altitudes.

Its just a shame they did not produce a 'handed' version of the Merlin - like the later versions of the P38 Allisons

I think the Mossie would have been truly superb with handed props - what a take off run ! I guess the Hornet just came too late really, which was a shame.

If only the war had gone on for another year - Atomic Bombs are such a spoiler, honestly.

 

[renrich]

The "Mossie" might have done well in the Yamamato mission IF the airplane"s glue and wood had not already deteriorated in the heat and humidity of the Pacific. The "Mossie" was not terribly successful in the CBI.

 

[tail end charlie]

The Avro Anson has to be the one.

Comfortable transport
Good trainer
Capable bomber (that is bomb not bombs)
Fighter capable of downing a Bf109 (at least once)


Ok it wasnt fast no range no firepower and the performance envelope wasnt big enough to put a stamp on but hey it looked cute.

 

[mhuxt]

The "Mossie" might have done well in the Yamamato mission IF the airplane"s glue and wood had not already deteriorated in the heat and humidity of the Pacific. The "Mossie" was not terribly successful in the CBI.

No, the F.II did not have bonding issues as it was Hatfield-built. The problems were with FB.VIs from one of the shadow factories, Chester IIRC.