river
Airman
Hi,
My favourite is the PzKpfw IV, especially the F2 variant.
My choice for best would be the Panther.
river
My favourite is the PzKpfw IV, especially the F2 variant.
My choice for best would be the Panther.
river
Best/Favourate Tank in the west
- Thread starter Yeomanz
- Start date
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Civettone
Tech Sergeant
river there's no F2 variant... It is a G but was called F2 in a manual or something.
sorry to be nitpicking dude
Kris
sorry to be nitpicking dude
Kris
river
Airman
Hi,
You're not nit-picking. But nor are you correct.
There was an F2 variant and it was different from the G model.
The initial F model (Chassis numbers 82001 to 82614) were built from April 1941 to March 1942 - a total of 462 were produced, and 25 were converted to F2 models.
The F2 (chassis numbers 82370 to 82650) were built from March to July 1942 - a total of 175 were produced, including the aforementioned 25 conversions from the initial F model.
The initial F model could not combat the Russian KV-1 and T-34 AFV and an order was issued to mount the KwK40 L/43 gun on the F model. This caused a month's loss of production in March 1942, and the F series was completed with the L/43 and was designated Aus F2.
Differences between the F and F2 was largely, but not completely, due to the larger gun. Ammunition storage was modified to house the larger shells, and the gunners and commanders seats were changed to allow for more room. The elevation mechanism was modified and an auxilliary hand traverse was installed. Because of the long barrel, a coil-spring counter balance was installed for the L/43. The hull rear armour went from 20mm @ 9degrees slope on the F to 20mm with 0 degrees slope on the F2.
The G model (chassis numbers 82651 to 84400) were produced from May 1942 to June 1943 - a total of1,687 being produced. Actually, 1,750 were made, but only 1,687 were built as G models, as 10 chassis were used for the Hummel (Bumble Bee) and 53 chassis were used for the Brummbar (Grizzly bear).
From late March 1943 the KwK40 L/48 was installed, instead of the L/43 - with a total of 1,275 G models (out of 1,687) having the L/43. G models with extra armour, bolted or welded on, began on 20th June 1942.
The G model had vision ports eliminated in the turret sides and in the loader's side of the turret front. The hull rear was 20mm @ 9 degrees slope. In the summer of 1942 changes included a new style of muzzle brake, as well as installing a system that allowed the transfer of coolant from to another MkIV to aid cold weather starting. Smoke discharges were installed on the turret side instead of on the hull. In January 1943 the drivers episcope (KFF2) was eliminated. Schurzen were added in 1943. The very late G models got a new type of drive sprocket and the radio antenna was moved to the left hull rear, making it almost impossible to distinguish a late G model to an early H model.
Model F2
weight - 23 tons
length - 5.62 metres
width - 2.84 metres
height - 2.68 metres
range - 200km
Model G
weight - 23.5 tons
length - 6.62 metres
width - 2.88 metres
height - 2.68 metres
range - 210km
So, the F2 is a distinct variant of the MkIV. Sure, it may be very close to the G version, but it was different enough to warrant the F2 designation, and I have yet to read any text that says there was no F2, and they were all G models.
river
You're not nit-picking. But nor are you correct.
There was an F2 variant and it was different from the G model.
The initial F model (Chassis numbers 82001 to 82614) were built from April 1941 to March 1942 - a total of 462 were produced, and 25 were converted to F2 models.
The F2 (chassis numbers 82370 to 82650) were built from March to July 1942 - a total of 175 were produced, including the aforementioned 25 conversions from the initial F model.
The initial F model could not combat the Russian KV-1 and T-34 AFV and an order was issued to mount the KwK40 L/43 gun on the F model. This caused a month's loss of production in March 1942, and the F series was completed with the L/43 and was designated Aus F2.
Differences between the F and F2 was largely, but not completely, due to the larger gun. Ammunition storage was modified to house the larger shells, and the gunners and commanders seats were changed to allow for more room. The elevation mechanism was modified and an auxilliary hand traverse was installed. Because of the long barrel, a coil-spring counter balance was installed for the L/43. The hull rear armour went from 20mm @ 9degrees slope on the F to 20mm with 0 degrees slope on the F2.
The G model (chassis numbers 82651 to 84400) were produced from May 1942 to June 1943 - a total of1,687 being produced. Actually, 1,750 were made, but only 1,687 were built as G models, as 10 chassis were used for the Hummel (Bumble Bee) and 53 chassis were used for the Brummbar (Grizzly bear).
From late March 1943 the KwK40 L/48 was installed, instead of the L/43 - with a total of 1,275 G models (out of 1,687) having the L/43. G models with extra armour, bolted or welded on, began on 20th June 1942.
The G model had vision ports eliminated in the turret sides and in the loader's side of the turret front. The hull rear was 20mm @ 9 degrees slope. In the summer of 1942 changes included a new style of muzzle brake, as well as installing a system that allowed the transfer of coolant from to another MkIV to aid cold weather starting. Smoke discharges were installed on the turret side instead of on the hull. In January 1943 the drivers episcope (KFF2) was eliminated. Schurzen were added in 1943. The very late G models got a new type of drive sprocket and the radio antenna was moved to the left hull rear, making it almost impossible to distinguish a late G model to an early H model.
Model F2
weight - 23 tons
length - 5.62 metres
width - 2.84 metres
height - 2.68 metres
range - 200km
Model G
weight - 23.5 tons
length - 6.62 metres
width - 2.88 metres
height - 2.68 metres
range - 210km
So, the F2 is a distinct variant of the MkIV. Sure, it may be very close to the G version, but it was different enough to warrant the F2 designation, and I have yet to read any text that says there was no F2, and they were all G models.
river
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
First of all, how come the G model is 1 meter longer? Is that a typo??
Anyway, fFrom Christian Ankerstjerne's site panzerworld.net
The Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.F2 and Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.G were not seperate vehicles, but merely different designations for the same vehicle. The Ausf.F2 designation appeared in two manuals before the designation was changed to Ausf.G, and thus the designation made it into post-war litterature as being a seperate vehicle.
Kris
Anyway, fFrom Christian Ankerstjerne's site panzerworld.net
The Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.F2 and Pz.Kpfw.IV Ausf.G were not seperate vehicles, but merely different designations for the same vehicle. The Ausf.F2 designation appeared in two manuals before the designation was changed to Ausf.G, and thus the designation made it into post-war litterature as being a seperate vehicle.
Kris
river
Airman
Hi,
It could be longer if they were taking in the length of the later G model with the L/48?
As quite a few things relating to WW2 equipment, some texts say one thing and others say another.
river
It could be longer if they were taking in the length of the later G model with the L/48?
As quite a few things relating to WW2 equipment, some texts say one thing and others say another.
river
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
G model would have been roughly 5 x 75mm longer, so 37,5 cm.
Listen, the F2 was renamed into G, and there was NO difference between them. Later G's were obviously altered but there is NO difference between the F2 and G.
One can say there was a F2 at a certain point but as they were renamed G one can only talk about the IV G.
Kris
Listen, the F2 was renamed into G, and there was NO difference between them. Later G's were obviously altered but there is NO difference between the F2 and G.
One can say there was a F2 at a certain point but as they were renamed G one can only talk about the IV G.
Kris
Messy1
Master Sergeant
How does a A34 comet compare?
Hello Messy
A34 Comet
Plusses
Excellent gun (almost as good in A/T work as the Panthers 7,5cm KwK 42) with APCBC ammo, with shorter ranges with APDS even better than 7,5cm KwK 42 with APCR shot.
Fast
Very good power weight ratio
Reliable
Reasonable good armour protection
Minusses
old-fasioned boxlike hull
narrow tracks
Juha
A34 Comet
Plusses
Excellent gun (almost as good in A/T work as the Panthers 7,5cm KwK 42) with APCBC ammo, with shorter ranges with APDS even better than 7,5cm KwK 42 with APCR shot.
Fast
Very good power weight ratio
Reliable
Reasonable good armour protection
Minusses
old-fasioned boxlike hull
narrow tracks
Juha
Messy1
Master Sergeant
Good info Juha!
vinnye
Senior Airman
That looks like a lot of good plusses for the Comet and not too may minuses!
If the frontal armour was more sloped and less boxy - the protection offered would be increased for little / no weight gain. By the time the Comet was being designed - the Allies must have been aware of the T34 - and should have been able to learn from it.
If the frontal armour was more sloped and less boxy - the protection offered would be increased for little / no weight gain. By the time the Comet was being designed - the Allies must have been aware of the T34 - and should have been able to learn from it.
parsifal
Colonel
I thought also that the Comets used a scaled down versiion of the 75mm gun, that decreased the firepower of the tank....not sure, but I thought I read it somewhere
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
The Comet used a gun called the 77mm even though it was actually a 3 inch 76.2mm gun but to save confusion with other 76mm tank guns it was labelled 77mm.
It used the same projectiles as the 17 pounder but used a smaller powder case taken from the 3 inch 20 cwt AA gun. The smaller powder charge cut performance of the projectiles by about 12 %. It was reckoned by tank crews to be a good accurate gun and the trade off between lower performance and much easier ammo handling with the smaller round was accepted.
The 77mm doesnt seem to have suffered the problems of wild shots that plagued the 17 pounder when firing APDS, caused by the sabot petals not seperating possibly because of the lower velocity.
It used the same projectiles as the 17 pounder but used a smaller powder case taken from the 3 inch 20 cwt AA gun. The smaller powder charge cut performance of the projectiles by about 12 %. It was reckoned by tank crews to be a good accurate gun and the trade off between lower performance and much easier ammo handling with the smaller round was accepted.
The 77mm doesnt seem to have suffered the problems of wild shots that plagued the 17 pounder when firing APDS, caused by the sabot petals not seperating possibly because of the lower velocity.
I'd say that Comet was the best tank for British in 45, it would have been the best for them also in 44 if available. Fast and reliable 33 ton tank with reasonable protection and very good gun. The narrow tracks were not so important in Western Europe. Panther on the other hand suited very well to Germans from 44 onwards when worst defects were eliminated. Being very good defensive tank with excellent frontal armour and excellent gun for A/T work. In defence the rather weak side armour for a 45ton tank wasn't so important than it would have been in offensive. And T-34-85 suited for Soviets, better HE ammo, always useful against A/T guns and mg nets, reliable and broad tracks were important in Eastern Europe.
Juha
Juha
vinnye
Senior Airman
http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index....iser-tank-a34&option=com_content&view=article
The Comet was essentially an enlarged version of the Cromwell, in 1943 attempts were made to mount Vickers' new high velocity 75mm gun in a Cromwell but despite many months and plans to have the tank in production shortly it was found that the gun would not fit into the Cromwell after all. This 75mm weapon was then modified to fire 17 Pounder ammunition and was known as 77mm so that there would not be confusion over ammunition supplies. The High Velocity 77mm was extremely accurate, more so than the regular 17 Pounder and was mounted on the Comet tank.
It had been planned to have the first crews equipped and trained with the Comet by December 1944 but due to the German offensive the crews did not have time to train until the new year, the Comet tank ultimately arrived too late but it's high speed was put to good use in Germany, this high speed also allowed to Comet to power its way through rough terrain that other tanks could not.
The Comet was essentially an enlarged version of the Cromwell, in 1943 attempts were made to mount Vickers' new high velocity 75mm gun in a Cromwell but despite many months and plans to have the tank in production shortly it was found that the gun would not fit into the Cromwell after all. This 75mm weapon was then modified to fire 17 Pounder ammunition and was known as 77mm so that there would not be confusion over ammunition supplies. The High Velocity 77mm was extremely accurate, more so than the regular 17 Pounder and was mounted on the Comet tank.
It had been planned to have the first crews equipped and trained with the Comet by December 1944 but due to the German offensive the crews did not have time to train until the new year, the Comet tank ultimately arrived too late but it's high speed was put to good use in Germany, this high speed also allowed to Comet to power its way through rough terrain that other tanks could not.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
I reckon the Comet would have been the ideal tank for 1944 and it really should have been available 6 months earlier than it was. The ideal tank for 1945 would have been the M26 or the Centurion.
Hello fastmongrel
Centurion just missed the war, so it arrived a bit too late for the British Army.
IMHO M26 at least at that time still lacked reliability when compared to Comet and as heavier was more problematic logistically, for ex in bridging requirements. And 77mm was almost as good as 90mm in penetration power with APCBC ammo. Hull protection of M26 was clearly better but in turret protection there wasn't so much difference. Comet's mobility was clearly better. So IMHO for the situation which British faced in 45 Comet suited better.
Juha
Centurion just missed the war, so it arrived a bit too late for the British Army.
IMHO M26 at least at that time still lacked reliability when compared to Comet and as heavier was more problematic logistically, for ex in bridging requirements. And 77mm was almost as good as 90mm in penetration power with APCBC ammo. Hull protection of M26 was clearly better but in turret protection there wasn't so much difference. Comet's mobility was clearly better. So IMHO for the situation which British faced in 45 Comet suited better.
Juha
vinnye
Senior Airman
Just checked on the M26 and found this -
M26 Pershing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Heavy Tank M26 Pershing was an American heavy tank used during World War II and the Korean War. It was named after General John Pershing, who led the American Expeditionary Force in Europe in World War I.
Development of the M26 during World War II was prolonged by a number of factors, the most important being opposition to the tank from Army Ground Forces (AGF). As a result, only the initial 20 M26 (T26E3) tanks deployed to Europe in January 1945 saw combat in World War II. The M26 and its improved derivative, the M46 Patton, both saw more combat in Korea. The M26 was underpowered and mechanically unreliable and so was withdrawn from Korea in 1951, in favor of the M46, which had a more powerful engine. The lineage of the M26 continued with the M47 Patton, and was reflected in the new designs of the later M48 Patton and M60 Patton tanks.
I thought the Centurian only became available in 1946 - but could be wrong! An excellent tank though as its service record suggests - one of the very best!
M26 Pershing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Heavy Tank M26 Pershing was an American heavy tank used during World War II and the Korean War. It was named after General John Pershing, who led the American Expeditionary Force in Europe in World War I.
Development of the M26 during World War II was prolonged by a number of factors, the most important being opposition to the tank from Army Ground Forces (AGF). As a result, only the initial 20 M26 (T26E3) tanks deployed to Europe in January 1945 saw combat in World War II. The M26 and its improved derivative, the M46 Patton, both saw more combat in Korea. The M26 was underpowered and mechanically unreliable and so was withdrawn from Korea in 1951, in favor of the M46, which had a more powerful engine. The lineage of the M26 continued with the M47 Patton, and was reflected in the new designs of the later M48 Patton and M60 Patton tanks.
I thought the Centurian only became available in 1946 - but could be wrong! An excellent tank though as its service record suggests - one of the very best!
vinnye
Senior Airman
Thanks Juha - i has seen the Cent as having a service history from 1946 onwards. But after reading your post I looked again and found this -
Manufacture of the Centurion began in January 1945, and six prototypes arrived in Belgium soon after the war in Europe ended in May 1945
Manufacture of the Centurion began in January 1945, and six prototypes arrived in Belgium soon after the war in Europe ended in May 1945
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