Best Fighter III

JonJGoldberg · Nov 21, 2005

Reply to evangilder >>>
Wow! They are great! I vote for a new topic. I like the top one better.

To All>>>
...Since I'm at the top of the page, Sorry guys, fighter table attached. Only 14 or 15 of you downloaded last time, so...

evangilder · Nov 21, 2005

Well, I don't think it's a question of which is better. I don't know, nor does it really matter. I think they're both cool.

JonJGoldberg · Nov 21, 2005

...no it doesn't matter. Kidding. They made me smile...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Nov 22, 2005

102first_hussars said:
I think Clearly the P-51 is the best fighter of WW2, regardless of what its problems were it had accounted for the most kills.

You absolutely sure about that. I may be wrong however how can the P-51 account for the most kills when the top 3 Bf-109 pilots alone shot down 922 aircraft. 922 aircraft alone. Then there are hundreds of more pilots with kills many of them over a 100 themselves. Again I might be wrong here but maybe just maybe you want to check that statement of yours.

elmilitaro · Nov 22, 2005

Gnomey said:
That isn't a model it is a real plane...

Sorry.

102first_hussars · Nov 23, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
102first_hussars said:

I think Clearly the P-51 is the best fighter of WW2, regardless of what its problems were it had accounted for the most kills.

Click to expand...

You absolutely sure about that. I may be wrong however how can the P-51 account for the most kills when the top 3 Bf-109 pilots alone shot down 922 aircraft. 922 aircraft alone. Then there are hundreds of more pilots with kills many of them over a 100 themselves. Again I might be wrong here but maybe just maybe you want to check that statement of yours.

Accounted for the most Luftwaffe kills I meant to say, about 15000 Luftwaffe planes out the 33000 total the U.S shot down.

Gnomey · Nov 23, 2005

As far as I can remember the B-17 accounted for the most kills in the ETO with around 12000 I think, I will be corrected if I am wrong though.

evangilder · Nov 23, 2005

15,000? Umm, no. The generally accepted number for the P-51 for kills is 4,950. If you count ground attack kills, the number grows, but still doesn't get to 15,000. The ground attacks allegedly destroyed about 4,100 aircraft on the ground.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Nov 23, 2005

There you go Even that was the number I was looking for. Did the P-51 really shoot down the most Luftwaffe planes though? I really dont know which aircraft did but I know it was not 15,000 like Hussars is saying. Anyhow, let me go and get my stuffing at put it in the fridge. I am getting things ready for Turkey Day tomorrow.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Nov 23, 2005

Here are some numbers that I came up with doing some searches:

P-51: 4,950 air kills, 4,131 ground kills and 230 V-1 kills
P-47: 3,916 air kills, 3,916 ground kills
P-38: 3,916 air kills, 749 ground kills

So yes I would say that the P-51D had the most kills for the USAAF. I will not say allies yet since I have not found kills for the British with there Spitfires yet.

I am also doing a search for the Luftwaffe kills by each aircraft type and so far have come up with nothing. My be though is that the Bf-109 has shot down the most aircraft in WW2. When 4 pilots that flew the 109 can come up with a 4th of the total of all aircraft shot down by P-51's then that would be my guess.

Jabberwocky · Nov 23, 2005

Gnomey said:
As far as I can remember the B-17 accounted for the most kills in the ETO with around 12000 I think, I will be corrected if I am wrong though.[/quote

All AAF heavy bombers in the ETO are credited with 6108 kills, from August 1942 through to May 1945. There is also some suggestion that this figure may well be far too high, as bomber gunner kill claims were often credited to multiple gunners, multiple times.

Taken from this document;

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/aafsd_pdf/t167.pdf

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Nov 23, 2005

I will buy that.

Gnomey · Nov 23, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I will buy that.

So would I. Thanks for clearing that up Jabberwocky, I can't remember where I got that figure.

wmaxt · Nov 23, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Here are some numbers that I came up with doing some searches:

P-51: 4,950 air kills, 4,131 ground kills and 230 V-1 kills
P-47: 3,916 air kills, 3,916 ground kills
P-38: 3,916 air kills, 749 ground kills

So yes I would say that the P-51D had the most kills for the USAAF. I will not say allies yet since I have not found kills for the British with there Spitfires yet.

I am also doing a search for the Luftwaffe kills by each aircraft type and so far have come up with nothing. My be though is that the Bf-109 has shot down the most aircraft in WW2. When 4 pilots that flew the 109 can come up with a 4th of the total of all aircraft shot down by P-51's then that would be my guess.

I wouldn't mind seeing some sources, the AAF Statistics people sent me a regretfuly those numbers are not kept seperately by model aifcraft, letter. They are willing to send micro-fich at $30 a roll (several hundred) so I can look myself.

Those numbers were also revised from 1957 and all records were not present. The P-38 had been credited with 5,734 in the Pacific at the end of the war that was reduced to less than 2,000? in '57. I have also seen higher numbers for P-38 ground kills. The P-38 numbers I see flashed around are 608 MTO, and 1,771 ETO. I have not found a reliable number for the PTO after the revision for even just the P-38.

I also have not found a shread of evidence verifying any of those numbers for instance the Air Force official total kills, by fighters, for WWII are 15,863.6 by fighter aircraft (AAF Statistics Group Maxwell AFB). When I add those numbers normaly given and that number, 12,782 for the planes above, falls short.

When I add the normal numbers given for AAF aircraft shot down P-38 1,758, P-51 2,520, P-47 3,077, P-40 553, P-39 107 = 8,105, just in the ETO, it's just under 3,000 aircraft more that the AAF statistics group at Maxwell AFB gives out, 5,324, for total fighter A/C lost in the ETO from all causes.

The numbers don't tell the whole story either ie. which plane was there in numbers/time, which plane had greater numbers of opponents and what was the expertise of those opponents? I don't have an answer for it and what I have seen no one else is any closer than that.

wmaxt

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Nov 23, 2005

I am not 100 pecent sure those figures up there are accurate either. I just posted what I found over a quick search. All I know is the P-51 did not shoot down 15000 aircraft all by itself.

wmaxt · Nov 23, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I am not 100 pecent sure those figures up there are accurate either. I just posted what I found over a quick search. All I know is the P-51 did not shoot down 15000 aircraft all by itself.

Agreed and understood. I just get tired of people thinking that the numbers tell the whole story when situation/conditions/timing are more important in war for most issues like these.

I would like to see where those came from I am still trying to sort this sh** myself.

wmaxt

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Nov 23, 2005

wmaxt said:
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I am not 100 pecent sure those figures up there are accurate either. I just posted what I found over a quick search. All I know is the P-51 did not shoot down 15000 aircraft all by itself.

Click to expand...

Agreed and understood. I just get tired of people thinking that the numbers tell the whole story when situation/conditions/timing are more important in war for most issues like these.

I would like to see where those came from I am still trying to sort this sh** myself.

wmaxt

I could not agree more with you. That is a big argument that I have with people also on here that think that numbers are the bible when they dont realize that there is more to it than just that and 90% of the time the numbers are not accurate anyhow because they are just what the military posts for them but the aircraft can actually fly better than those numbers.

To be honest I do not remember the sites. I just flipped through and took some numbers. It really was a quick search.

lesofprimus · Nov 23, 2005

Can I explain something for everybody??? There will NEVER be an accurate accounting of air to air kills for ANY country... The wasnt an accurate counting back in 1944-45, let alone 2004-2005....

So sitting here trying to discuss the number of kills per aircraft is just like kissing ur cousin.... Whatever numbers u decide on are about as wrong as they can get... I dont put much faith in the totals of "Official" kills....

The Germans' OKL, responsible for the verification of claims, was extremely picky in their criteria for recognition of a confirmed kill, and they messed up so often its not funny... On some nights, JG 300 would claim 4 bombers destroyed, with witnesses and wreckage, and the kills would not be confirmed...

Comeon... Guys, dont get hung up on numbers... U can use them as a broad canvas, but nothing more...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Nov 23, 2005

Could not agree more.

syscom3 · Nov 23, 2005

lesofprimus said:
..........So sitting here trying to discuss the number of kills per aircraft is just like kissing ur cousin....

ewwwww

Best Fighter III

Airman 1st Class

Attachments

"Shooter"

Airman 1st Class

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Senior Airman

Tech Sergeant

Globetrotting Surgeon General

"Shooter"

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Staff Sergeant

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Globetrotting Surgeon General

Staff Sergeant

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Staff Sergeant

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Brigadier General

Private Chemtrail Disperser

Pacific Historian

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads