Best Fighter III

[JonJGoldberg]

DerAdlerIstGelandet

The 1st part of your reply about air combat victories is at this time irrelevant to me.

You are a 'main moderator'… the 'threat' in your post is warranted?
You talked with your peers before threatening me?
How am I not going to be happy; why not simply write what you intend to do? You need that one more 'insult' to justify what exactly?
Absolutely absurd, that as moderator someone (myself primarily) that may not agree with you has 'personal problems' and or is making a 'personal attack' and therefore must be 'threatened'… Put into place, as if I was your child... Excuse me!!!
This is an official WW2aircraft.net position?
Great!!!
I was an idiot to have ever posted anything here…
I'm not in the least 'guilty' of the crimes DerAdlerIstGelandet has me convicted.


Regardless of the FACT that I expressed 'respect' for your efforts, that what I was posting was not intended as a personal attack, that what I wrote was in support of an opinion differing from yours; you even quoted these words, you still took it as a personal attack or as a condemnation of your work.

Twitch was 'thumb wrestling' with members in this thread putting forth points I find very similar to my start at WW2aircraft.net, also here, in this same thread. You may find my post in support of Twitch here ( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-580.html ), look for JonJGoldberg Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:59 am, you will notice it is 'un-edited'. This post, as you may plainly see, contained postings from DerAdlerIstGelandet as well as others; used to describe my experience to Twitch and other readers; of the exchanges that resulted to statements I posted then, that I felt similar to Twitch's statements position now.

At the end of this post, I try to show Twitch that we (actually, let me correct that… you) here at WW2aircraft.net can have serious differences, such as closed minds, yet remain friendly, we're not 'too serious'… I offer as proof a fencing match with you (DerAdlerIstGelandet); if you (DerAdlerIstGelandet) took this to mean anything else… Ask before threatening, next time.

My posts have never ever been 'personally condescending' by intent; unless provoked. I seem more 'gullible' than most in this regard, and should have by my age, better 'control' over my entry into this kind of exchange, but I don't. I therefore feel you to be very free with your accusations, and instead of the general accusation of "…And by the way if go back and read your posts, they sound more like personal attacks in some of them." I will exactly direct you to some of our previous exchanges, and in doing so expose to you your own 'personal problem'…

Edited from JonJGoldberg Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:17 am
( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-540.html )
"…Sorry, there has been quite a bit of action, at least for me, there recently at this exact moment I'm a bit fired up, so, accept my apology in advance for the tone. The reason for the post is to inform of some changes to the Fighter Comparison Tables…"

Copied from DerAdlerIstGelandet Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:01 am
( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-540.html )
"It almost sounds like someone needs to stop taking things so seriously and not fired up."

Edited from JonJGoldberg Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:17 am
( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-540.html )
"…The amount of effort expended by the Allies, Soviets, as it is hard to believe just the Americans were interested in the finding, securing, rebuilding, testing of Me-262s, is the final testimony of its status, Best Fighter Of WW2."

Copied from DerAdlerIstGelandet Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:00 pm
( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-540.html )
"Jon I found your posts very very interesting and enjoyed reading them and posted some comments here and there. I just chose not to completly get involved because I did not care to compare aircraft based off of data from sims."

Edited from JonJGoldberg Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2005 9:48 pm
( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-540.html )
"…Absolutely no data came from any sim. They are drawn from books, web sites, other 'source' materials (no games/sims)…" "To conclude: Based on what I've seen of your posts, you I derive data from the same sources; reliable not so reliable. You use data reason to draw conclusions dream (I really don't mean this in a negative way at all). I use data reason to draw conclusions 'animate' sim aircraft.."

Copied from DerAdlerIstGelandet Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2005 9:35 am
( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-540.html )
Jon I may have misunderstood you then. I thought you were taking this data from Sims. I apologize.
I however do not dream about flying.......

Edited from JonJGoldberg Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:35 pm
( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-540.html )
I didn't mean to imply dreaming of flying in general, or weather or not you have flown, or have flown WW2 aircraft, just what we do with the data.
Sorry

Copied from DerAdlerIstGelandet Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:10 pm
( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-540.html )
"I use data to learn."

Copied from JonJGoldberg Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:51 pm
( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-560.html )
"Now who's gotta lighten up?"

Copied from DerAdlerIstGelandet Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:23 am
( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-560.html )
"If you are referring to me, I dont need to lighten up....."

One might think upon reflecting back on this Adler, that this 'Jon guy' seems very condescending, and is exciting a personal vendetta… I guess…

So we come to your last quote of mine, within your E-mail. Taken completely from context, as it stands alone without the rest of my post, within your post, as you presented it, it may be considered a personal attack. Your presentation was done in order to justify your threat as you can not reply in a 'meaningful adult manner', this is my conclusion.

Copied from JonJGoldberg Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:08 am
( http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/about962-0-asc-580.html )
"DerAdlerIstGelandet,
For the 'longest time' I felt it important to try to get you to see the validity of history vs 'paper capability'.

Finally, for reasons unknown to me, as I catch up from an unusually busy period at work, on my reading here, I find, low behold a flip flop from you.

If you read fully my previous post (big job, I write too dam much 'nothing', even for me as I look back on my own crap), on Oct. 16 you state (I put my interpretations to your quotes I posted 'above') you believe the reason for the Mustang's success was volume, accomplishments be dammed its ability that counts. Reasonable, even if flawed, arguments.

Today I find you posted: "Twitch you are correct that paper stats do not prove what aircraft is better than another, I have argued that many, however with the argument that you gave, my paper stats contradicted..." What's this?

Let me offer the following facts you've informed me of in the past... Although the 'spec' shows the aircraft on your list had the 'ability' to run with, or out speed the '51 they in large part did not, they could not, as 'fielded', either run with, or out handle the Pony, due to, as you love to proclaim, the lack of: Quality parts, gas / any parts, or any gas; quality opportunity as German pilots usually found themselves climbing to meet the bombers / no opportunity as while climbing, diving in on them were '51s in numbers greater than or equal to their own.

I really can't believe you honestly feel aircraft were dog fighting, for the most part in WW2. The Japanese Italians in general, thought the same; didn't take them as long to see their errors, as it has for you, although for them this error was far more costly. I've read from countless fighter pilots of the time, over and again, that speed, was above all, was the most important attribute while engaged in combat in the days before 'radar-locked, fire and forget' weapons. During WW2 if I could out speed you, I will not need to out maneuver you, I just need to wear you out, keep my composure distance, for fate or opportunity will show their hand. Yet I remain in control, until I give your maneuverable aircraft my opportunity by slowing down, then, only then may you may maneuver to serve me your fate.

And others agreed with you DerAdlerIstGelandet...

Oh man the flip flop… You are still saying that it was mass that made the Mustang great, and 'true ability' that makes the 'fighter' of your choice, I believe it to be the '190-D, the best. There has been no wavering here. The flip-flops occur when we look at your arguments as they relate to your views.

On the one hand, you do not accept 'history''… The stats for the Pony you believe are inaccurate due to their number, as you posted since, lets say Oct 16th. Most of us know the '47 was the American fighter type built in the most number, not just for WW2, but in American History, therefore it was the most numerous Allied or American fighter type found in the sky, period.

So you flip, you argue, the '190-D was more capable, more developed, well rounded, offering stats. Big deal, for one thing; come again for another? After the BOB, during the time of its introduction, when the '190 ruled the air, what did it do to effect history, in a scale that rivals the Mustang? OOPPS I mentioned history, invalid argument. As for stats, they are too close to call, and you do not believe in them. So for the moment, lets say I agree that Dora was more well rounded than the Pony. Dora's job was to eliminate the bombers 1st. I guess it preformed well. It was often given the opportunity, bombers dispenced, to carry out those other tasks it was 'developed' for. The Pony's job was to protect the bombers. I guess it performed poorly. Ponies rarely strayed and performed 'secondary' roles, as they were too busy trying to adequately defend the bombers, and remained at their side.

So you flop… You stated again recently that stats are meaningless to you, its ability that counts, as proven by... Just how do you go and convey your points. The flip flop prevents anyone from presenting you with valid points. In essence, you are a masochist who because he likes the discomfort of ice cold showers in the winter takes warm showers instead.

… by the way, I still believe the Me-262 to be the best fighter of WW2, welcome arguments in challenge."

So do what you will DerAdlerIstGelandet … Make me very unhappy!!! You have the POWER, I've given you the excuse…

Now I'm taking pleasure in being the masochist who because he likes the discomfort of ice cold showers in the winter takes warm showers instead. Feels BAD… Real BAD.
So-long, see ya!!! This will be my last post on this site, unless DerAdlerIstGelandet apologizes for his threat, or I receive an apology from another moderator.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Oh brother here we go. There was no threat involved actually, it was a statement. I was simply saying that if insult me again such as the masochist comment, then I have to take administrative action. I had no intentions of banning you or running you off. I do not threaten people over the internet, that is a cowardly thing to do, and for that I will not apologize.

Jon I have told you on several occasions that I think your posts are very good posts and that you contribute here very very very well. You do not need to leave this forum.

I just dont like people telling me that I am closed person because I dont agree with there ideas or opinions. Maybe it is you that is closed....

There are plenty of people here who do not agree with me, and there are plenty of people here that I do not agree with and we all still get along. Hell some of these people are even coming to visit me in Germany this summer to hang out. Just because someone does not agree with you or has a different opinion does not make them closed or wrong.

On that note do as you please and have a good night.

 

[davparlr]

Well, I am new here and there seems to be a fist fight going on. I'll throw in my two cents worth and try to keep it short. Selecting a best fighter is a extremely difficult task. As has been mentioned before, it is all a matter of selecting variables to emphasis. High altitude, low, mid, top speed, roll rates, best climb, etc. These variables can be argued forever. In addition, for rapid pace of technology exhibited in WWII, time line is critical. One can argue the Me 262 was the greatest, but maybe if the war had continued another 6 months, the P-80 or Brit fighter would have dominated (this is discussed elsewhere in this forum). A few months later, advanced German planes would switch the balance again, an so on. The ultimate measure of greatness of any weapons system is it impact on the enemy and on the conflict. There were many great fighters in WWII. In my mind, there is only one with a unique capability that enemy could not overcome, that was the ability to fly long distances and then engage the enemy's most capable defense and give a good account of itself. That, of course, is the P-51. Without the Mustang, daylight bombing may have been stopped. Without the Mustang, intensive anti-fighter efforts before D-day could not have been effective. D-day may have failed. And of, course, there's Hermann Goering's famous statement "When I saw Mustangs over Berlin, I knew the jig was up." I don't any other fighter that impacted his enemy as much as the Mustang or earned such a statement. The Germans could not recover from the bombings and the deep interdictions the Mustangs allowed. The Mustang's greatness was not in its overpowering fighting ability, which is arguable, but in what forces it allowed bring to the enemy, which is not.

I may be incorrect in some details but I think the variable I selected is correct.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

One can argue the Me 262 was the greatest, but maybe if the war had continued another 6 months, the P-80 or Brit fighter would have dominated (this is discussed elsewhere in this forum). A few months later, advanced German planes would switch the balance again, an so on.

That I agree with 100%.

I don't any other fighter that impacted his enemy as much as the Mustang or earned such a statement.

That I do not agree with. The Spitfire and Hurricane were for the British just as the P-51 was for the US. The Spitfire and Hurricane are what kept England alive during the BoB. Without it, England may have been fallen (ofcourse this is highly debatable because the Germans more than likely would not have been able to logistically sustain and invasion of England anyhow).

 

[davparlr]

The Spitfire and Hurricane are what kept England alive during the BoB. Without it, England may have been fallen

I agree that they were vital to the winning of the war and were great airplanes and indeed when the Battle of Britain was won, "The jig was up". I had read that after the war the Russians ask a German general what was the turning point of the war, expecting him to say Stalingrad. He said, correctly, the Battle of Britain. I guess my point of uniqueness is that, while great, they were typical. I suspect that if you swapped the spitfire and hurricane with the Me109, the British pilots would still have won the battle. I do not know of another Axis or, as a matter of fact, Allied aircraft that you could have swapped with the P-51 and have been able to do what it did. From my personal perspective, this raises the P-51 ever so slightly above the many of other qualified candidates.

 

[netudki]

There isn't any fighter, that you cant swap for another fighter. The P-51 you can swap for the P-47 or P-38. Maybe the causality of Ally would be higher if only the P-47 or P-38 will be the only escort fighter, but they will win the war. The only different between the Mustang and the Spiti and the Hurricane, that they start the fight at 1939, when the P-51 was only a little dream. That is the reason why the Spiti is the Best fighter of WW II.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You bring up a good arguent for the P-51, and it is a valid one, I just think that the only reason it was so effective is because of the sheer numbers. You cut those numbers of P-51s down and more German fighters would have gotten to the bombers.

nedudki there is one big difference between the P-51 and the Spitfire and Hurricane and that would be: range. The Spitfire could not take the battle to the Germans as well as the P-51 could.

 

[lesofprimus]

Joj J,
Throughout ur entire post above, u seem like a freakin crybaby... I do not like the way u think u can talk to a Moderator, so heres a warning for u, and some advice....

If u dont like it here, leave, and no one will miss u, and u'll be replaced by another number crunching stat geek.... Ive usually enjoyed ur posts and info, and the replies that u sometimes get were amusing, but this crap has gotten too far....

 

[netudki]

Dear DerAdlerIstGelandet
You are right, the Mustang was a long range fighter, the Spiti was a short range interceptor. But, there was a tendency, to increase the Spiti's range
and the later types had more and more range, but at 1944 was unnecessary to create a long range Spiti escort type, because this taske - the daylight heavy bomb raids and escort - fulfill the US Air Force.
I think would be better if I would say, that the Spiti was more useful for the Allied Forces in the II WW like the P-51.

 

[davparlr]

I have probably kicked off a discussion held many times and will continue to do so. The ultimate answer is subjective. And most arguments are non persuasive to fans of competing aircraft.

To answer a couple of comments.

You bring up a good arguent for the P-51, and it is a valid one, I just think that the only reason it was so effective is because of the sheer numbers.

The sheer numbers did allow the overpowering of the German fighters, but you could have filled the skies with P-47s, P-38s, spitfires, et. al., and they would never have reached Germany to overpower the Germans. Again, it was P-51s unique range and performance that opened this option.

The P-51 you can swap for the P-47 or P-38.

Before D-Day plus some days, the P-47 or P-38 could not have replaced the P-51 on the long range bomber raids that strangled Germany and cut support for the troops, nor provide the long range interdiction and fighter sweeps that were instrumental in reducing German fighter response to D-Day. After D-Day, they would have been able to replace the P-51, but the horse was out of the barn by then.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ill agree with that. As I said the main advantage of the P-51 was the fact that it could take the battle to Germany. Now having said that, was the P-51 the best fighter of WW2. Probably not. It was a great all around aircraft and one of the greatest of all times, but I think there were aircraft that overall were better. I personally think the P-47, Fw-190D and the Spitfire were overall better aircraft than the P-51. Each aircraft had there advantages and disadvantages over the others.

Basically though I think it comes down to what you are using the aircraft for.

 

[davparlr]

All good classic selections with good arguments for all four with the break being how one selects the important criteria. I suspect any side would be thrilled to have any of these planes on their side. I must admit that I am unfamiliar with Soviet aircraft but I think that toward the end of the war, they had some pretty good fighters and ground attack (e.g. Il2). Performance data on the La5FN sounds pretty good but info on high verses low altitude seems limited. It uses a twin row radial. Does anybody know if this is a western design. The Soviet were not proud and would take any technology to help them push out the Germans.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I too am very unfamiliar with the Soviet Aircraft, I cant help you much.

 

[wmaxt]

I have probably kicked off a discussion held many times and will continue to do so. The ultimate answer is subjective. And most arguments are non persuasive to fans of competing aircraft.

To answer a couple of comments.

You bring up a good arguent for the P-51, and it is a valid one, I just think that the only reason it was so effective is because of the sheer numbers.

The sheer numbers did allow the overpowering of the German fighters, but you could have filled the skies with P-47s, P-38s, spitfires, et. al., and they would never have reached Germany to overpower the Germans. Again, it was P-51s unique range and performance that opened this option.

1. P-38 flew the First 1,000mi escort in the ETO/MTO over Italy from Africa in August '43. I belive the day after the first Schwienfurt raid.
2. The P-38s predated the P-51s as 8th AF escorts by 2 months, late october '43 to the P-51s last week in December.
3. The P-38s were only matched in numbers by the P-51s in June of 1944, it was still 1/2 P-38s in March.
4. The P-38s were the First Escort fighters over Berlin, Germany.
5. The P-38 had the SAME abort rate ave of 30% that the P-51 had for their first three months of operation in the ETO. The 8th AF lost only 451 P-38s Total, even though the 8th encouraged the myth that it was a lot higher.
6. The loss rate of bombers was 9/10% ave before escort and from the time the P-38s started escorting bombers it dropped to 4/5% (~90% of that is due to AA fire). It never changed, it wasn't the planes type it was the fact of an agressive escort, the P-47D-25 (long range versions) on would have done as well.

BTW As for range, at the time the P-38Hs were escorting bombers their range was 1,640mi with the 165gal drop tanks used by the 8th AF. Everwhere else in the world 300gal drop tanks were used allowing 2,200mi range.

The P-51 you can swap for the P-47 or P-38.

Before D-Day plus some days, the P-47 or P-38 could not have replaced the P-51 on the long range bomber raids that strangled Germany and cut support for the troops, nor provide the long range interdiction and fighter sweeps that were instrumental in reducing German fighter response to D-Day. After D-Day, they would have been able to replace the P-51, but the horse was out of the barn by then.

As I pointed out above they were there and the P-38 in particular did MORE than half the work getting to D-Day. The P-38s also did a lot during may in preparing the way for D-Day as attack aircraft in the Normandy landing area. Alos the P-38 were used as beach/landing area/ship cover on D-Day.

Try this site for more data on the P-38 and its role in the ETO:
http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html these articles are titled Der Gabelschwanz Teufel but don't let that fool you.

Also don't forget the early P-47s and Spitfires that gave cover to the German border both in and out, that allowed the P-38s, P-47D, and the P-51s to retain their external fuel so they could reach Berlin. The P-51 gets a LOT of credit it never earned! It was a very good fighter but not half as good as its press.

wmaxt

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is what I agree with there wmaxt. I think it was a great fighter, but just a bit overated. It kind of overshadows many other aircraft that were better, but just did not get the attention and fame.

 

[Gnomey]

Agreed Adler and wmaxt, the P-51 is overated by many and overshadows other contempory aircraft...

Nice sig Adler!

 

[davparlr]

Earlier in my career, I worked with a man who had flown both the spitfire and the mustang in WWII. Unfortunately, at that time I was more timid on talking to people about their war experiences. I wish that I had talked to him in depth. I am sure he could have spread some light on the discussions.

Other people I knew but never talked about the war with were:

One who flew the B-26 in WWII

One who was a flight test pilot for Douglas during WWII flying B-25s (he was 17 years old). He also went to school with Marilyn Monroe (he knew her by her real name).

Cmdr. Mitsuo Fuchida, who led the attack on Pearl Harbor (he is the one to call out Tora, Tora, Tora), visited my church for a testamony.

A neighbor who was on the destroyer Laffey when it was almost blown in half by a kamikazi off Okinawi.

If only I could talk to these guys now, what questions I would ask.

I have had the opportunity to talk to a WWII marine who was in charge of a machine gun platoon at Guadalcanal, Tarawa, and Iwo Jima. Those who know the war in the Pacific, knows these battles. He was hit in hte stomach by a japanese machine gun bullet 20 days into Iwo. He did have quite a story to tell.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have talked to a few of the crew members from the Memphis Belle when they came to talk to our ROTC class many years ago.

 

[lesofprimus]

I've talked to so many vets I cant recall them all now, and God how do I wish I had a tape recorder..... Adolf Galland was a gas....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I wish I could have met him. Most of all I wish I could have met Hartmann, Baer, and Boyington.