Best Rifle Of WWII

[renrich]

The magazine on the M14 was an irritant to me when I used it but I will admit I might be a little old fashioned. I felt that one had to turn the piece at least to the side and look down at it to insert the magazine whereas I could load the clip in the M1 without looking and without dismounting the weapon.

 

[ohka345]

love arisakas

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Type 38 had many problems.

Though it was accurate the 6.5mm round was not very powerful and the rifel was also the longest used in WW2 which made it very awkward to handle for the Japanese soldiers.

Therefore they designed the Type 99 which was shorter and used a 7.7mm. There was also a long version of the Type 99 but not very many were built. The Type 99 never really replaced the Type 38 anyhow.

In my opinion the K98, Gewehr 41, Mosin Nagant, M1 Garand, M1903 Springfield, and the Lee Enfield were all better weapons.

 

[lesofprimus]

In my opinion the K98, Gewehr 41, Mosin Nagant, M1 Garand, M1903 Springfield, and the Lee Enfield were all better weapons.

Agreed 100%...

 

[ohka345]

DerAlderIstGelandet knows a lot about rifles!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Not as much as many people here, but I do research before I go and make posts about what is the best and what is not.

 

[Matt308]

Logic string...

Ohka=Everything Japanese=Arisaka

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Reminds me of others here.

 

[Soren]

Don't know about the Mosin Nagant, it wasn't that good a rifle. Long and cumbersome, and then there's the action, pretty unsafe. The Japanese Type 99 is better.

 

[Soren]

As to the most accurate rifle of WWII, the Swedish 6.5mm Mauser M-96:

 

[Matt308]

More so than the Schmidt Ruben? Okay. I can't argue with that.

 

[Soren]

The Schmidt Rubin is remarkably accurate, demonstrating accuracy in the same class as the K98k, however the Swedish M-96 is slightly more accurate.

The only rifle I can think of which can match the Swedish M-96 in accuracy would be the Gewehr 98b, this rifle adds another 25- 30 m/s of velocity to the 7.92mm 198gr sS round, which means a MV of ~810 m/s plus a faster spin because of the extra barrell lenght.

 

[Jank]

"this rifle adds another 25- 30 m/s of velocity to the 7.92mm 198gr sS round, which means a MV of ~810 m/s plus a faster spin because of the extra barrell lenght."

Spin rate (inches of travel per a single rotation of the bullet) is determined by one thing, the twist rate of the rifling. Barrel length has nothing to do with it. A faster twist is necesary to stabilize longer bullets. I have a 1:12" twist .223 rifle that results in keyholes at 100 yards when using 77 gr bullets. My 1:8" twist rifle shoots them just fine. If you were to increase the velocity of the 1:12": barrel such that the twist rate in 'revolutions per second' were equal to that of the 1:8" twist barrel, the bullets would still keyhole. It's twist over linear distance and not twist over time that stabilizes the bullet.

 

[Soren]

You're right in theory, however the projectile doesn't always grip the rifling 100%, the forces involved make sure of that, and generally the longer the projectile is in contact with the rifling (ofcourse there's a limit) the faster the spin. But the tiny amount of extra spin caused by the longer barrel doesn't affect accuracy anywhere near as much as the extra velocity.

But in short you're right Jank.

 

[Jank]

Soren, there is no "extra spin" imparted on the bullet by a longer barrel. The skidding effect takes place initially before there is a good bite on the bullet. By the time the bullet has traveled 18" inches down the barrel, the bullet is rotating right along with the rifling. Extending the barrel out another 6" even will not affect this.

I would be interested in any source you can cite that even discusses the relative differences in a bullet's rate of twist imparted by extra barrel length in a rifle.

Since you mentioned extra barrel length as a source of accuracy, a longer barrel can have a detrimental effect on accuracy for the following reason. Barrel whip. When the bullet travels down the barrel, the barrel actually moves in a wave like whipping fashion. In a heavy barreled target gun, the whipping effect is overcome by the structural strength of the heavy barrel but in most military and sporting arms, it can be measured and does have a small effect on accuracy. I believe this is partly to blame for the accuracy problems experienced by the Ruger Mini-14. You also see sporting rifles today that have tunable weights for harmonoc stabilization of barrel whip.

In sum, a shorter barrel of the same diameter will have greater stiffness and similarly overcome what would otherwise be a propensity to whip.

 

[Soren]

It sounds like you're talking about pistol rounds Jank, not full powered rifle rounds. AFAIK a rifle projectile rarely achieves a 100% grip on the rifling.

And about barrel whip, yes this a problem - esp. on rifles with free floating barrels.

 

[Jank]

No, I am talking about your assertion that, "this rifle adds another 25- 30 m/s of velocity to the 7.92mm 198gr sS round, which means a MV of ~810 m/s plus a faster spin because of the extra barrell lenght."

I have a 16" barreled AR-15 rifle. If the barrel were 24" with the same rate of twist, the bullet would not have a "faster spin" (inches of travel per rotation of the bullet) from the 24" barrel.

On a related note, one of the first things a gunsmith will do to improve the accuracy of your gun will be to free float the barrel. As a rule of thumb, you are always better off without the stock pressing against one or more points on the barrel.

 

[Soren]

Yes your bullet will infact have a faster spin from your 24" barrell, maybe not pr. distance travelled but pr. amount of time. In any case everything else being equal a faster muzzle velocity means higher accuracy.

About the free floating barrel, its usually used on high precision rifles, however it doesn't emmidiately in itself improve accuracy, however over time it'll prevent accuracy from deteriorating.

 

[Jank]

"In any case everything else being equal a faster muzzle velocity means higher accuracy."

No. If you handloaded, whether for a rifle or a pistol, you would know that accuracy generally deteriorates at the higher velocities. The most accurate loads are generally not the highest velocity loads. Look at any reloading site that tracks the group size with the listed loads and you will see that the most accurate loads are amost never those with the highest velocity. Higher velocity means flatter trajectory (with any given bullets). Group size is what determines accuracy and that is entirely different.

"About the free floating barrel, its usually used on high precision rifles,"

Today, it is also a standard feature on many sporting rifles.

"however it doesn't emmidiately in itself improve accuracy,"

No. The reason it is a standard recommendation of gunsmiths and self-help books / articles for improving accuracy is because it usually does improve accuracy and dramatically so.

"Yes your bullet will infact have a faster spin from your 24" barrell, maybe not pr. distance travelled but pr. amount of time."

I think I see your misunderstanding now. You think that the increased velocity results in faster spin and thus greater accuracy. (Otherwise why point out the merit of a "faster spin" from greater velocity?)

Soren, a bullet derives it's stability in flight not from its rotation over time but its rotation over distance. If rotation over time were a factor in stabilization, then you would indeed be correct that a faster velocity would create more stability as the bullet would "spin faster" over any given period of time. That is not the case though. If it was, then you could stretch the twist rate of a .308 from 1:10" to 1:20" and derive the same stability by merely doubling the velocity.

Even you can recognize the fallacy in that reasoning. No one manipulates velocity in an attempt at fine tuning stability through spin rate over time. If you can cite any source that even discusses such a phenomenon, I and other handloaders would like to see it.

 

[Soren]

No. The reason it is a standard recommendation of gunsmiths and self-help books / articles for improving accuracy is because it usually does improve accuracy and dramatically so.

I repeat it doesn't emmidiately improve accuracy, however it does so over time, the benefit being that the action and barrell won't skid around within the wooden stock.

That being said I've shot sub MOA 5 shot groups with the K98k and M-96 at 300m, and somehow I don't think free floating the barrel would've helped.

No. If you handloaded, whether for a rifle or a pistol, you would know that accuracy generally deteriorates at the higher velocities. The most accurate loads are generally are not the hot highest velocity loads. Look at any reloading site that tracks the group size with the listed loads and you will see that the most accurate loads are amost never those with the highest velocity.

I disagree, a higher velocity does generally increase accuracy. Its common knowledge in my former business infact

PS: the Gewehr 98 is infact generally more accurate than the K98k, and since there's no difference between the two rifles, besides barrel lenght, only muzzle velocity can be the colbrit here.