Best transporter

[the lancaster kicks ass]

combat record, in my opinion, has allot to do with how good they were......

 

[cheddar cheese]

Whether they saw much service or not has jack to do with how good they are. If theyre good, theyre good. Take the 5 Series fighters for instance (I know I bang on about em but their a good example) they saw hardly any service, but that does stop em from being good.

 

[plan_D]

How did these Italian transports compare to the C-46 and C-47 in stats then?

 

[cheddar cheese]

Well the SM.82 could carry 40 Paratroopers, or 8,818lbs of bombs if needs be. Top speed 230mph C-47, 1900mile range and 20,000ft ceiling. It was better defended with one x12.7mm and 3x 7.7mm.

 

[plan_D]

What a random mix of numbers - do it again properly. A comparison, CC...stats from both aircraft. And the C-47 was a Cargo plane - bombload means nothing if we're talking about Transporters.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Ok.

 

[cheddar cheese]

SM.82

First flown in 1938, the Canguru was a scaled up version of the SM.75 with a comparatively longer and deeper fuselage and had a fuselage of fabric-covered welded steel tube construction and flying surfaces that were of plywood covered wooden construction with the exception of the fabric covered metal control surfaces.

Production totaled about 400 aircraft and these were used mainly as transports during Italy's participation in World War II. About 80 survived the Italian armistice in 9/43 with 50 surviving with the Italian Fascist side and 30 with the co-belligerent side. 30 remained in service after the war in the transport role powered by four 1,350 hp Pratt Whitney Twin Wasp radial engines.

Total Length
75.131 ft

Greatest height
19.685 ft

Wingspan
97.375 ft

Wing area
1276.610 sqft

Max take off weight
39734.1 lbs

Weight empty
23262.8 lbs

Powerplant
Three 950 hp Alfa Romeo 128 RC.21 radial engines

Cruising Speed
186 mph

Max Speed
230 mph

Range
1,864 miles

Ceiling
19,685 feet

Crew
Pilot, co-pilot, radio operator/gunner, bombardier/navigator and 4 gunners

Users
Italy, Germany

Armament:
One 12.7mm trainable machine gun in dorsal turret, one 7.7mm trainable machine gun in each of nose, ventral gondola and two beam positions, and up to 8.818 lbs of disposable stores

C-47

Few aircraft are as well known or were so widely used for so long as the C-47 or "Gooney Bird" as it was affectionately nicknamed. The aircraft was adapted from the DC-3 commercial airliner which appeared in 1936. The first C-47s were ordered in 1940 and by the end of WW II, 9,348 had been procured for AAF use. They carried personnel and cargo, and in a combat role, towed troop-carrying gliders and dropped paratroops into enemy territory.

After WW II, many C-47s remained in USAF service, participating in the Berlin Airlift and other peacetime activities. During the Korean War, C-47s hauled supplies, dropped paratroops, evacuated wounded and dropped flares for night bombing attacks. In Vietnam, the C-47 served again as a transport, but it was also used in a variety of other ways which included flying ground attack (gunship) , reconnaissance, and psychological warfare missions.


SPECIFICATIONS
Span
95 ft. 0 in.

Length
64 ft. 5 in.

Height
16 ft. 11 in.

Weight
33,000 lbs. loaded

Armament
None

Engines
Two Pratt Whitney R-1830s of 1,200 hp. ea.

Crew
Six

Maximum speed
232 mph.

Cruising speed
175 mph.

Range
1,513 miles

Service Ceiling
24,450 ft.

 

[evangilder]

While I am a big fan of the C-47 and think the record does speak for itself, The C-46 could carry a bigger payload, but consumed more fuel doing so. Here are its' stats, from Warbirdalley:

Specifications (C-46A):
Engines: Two 2,000-hp Pratt Whitney R-2800-51 radial piston engines
Weight: Empty 30,000 lbs., Max Takeoff 45,000 lbs.
Wing Span: 108ft. 0in.
Length: 76ft. 4in.
Height: 21ft. 9in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 270 mph
Cruising Speed: 173 mph
Ceiling: 24,500 ft.
Range: 3,150 miles
Armament: None

Later versions carried up to 50,000 lbs in military overload conditions. It could also carry up to 50 troops, but typically carried 38.

 

[plan_D]

I prefer the C-46 it was a superior plane to the C-47. That is a good transport plane, CC - but there is another thing - was it easy to mass produce?

 

[cheddar cheese]

No idea; its Italian. They cant mass produce anything for shit Probably not I guess though.

 

[plan_D]

This is just my opinion but I believe that the most important thing of a cargo plane [during World War 2] was how many you could field. Most of the major transport types could carry around the same weights, the same length and at the same cruising speed.

All weights were quite low compared to today's standards - so it's really how many you can get flying quickly.

 

[cheddar cheese]

I tend to agree. It may have been easy to produce, if for instance Germany built them, but I dont know. 400 of them is actually quite a lot for Italy. Not to detract from it though, the Italians built some pretty good transports.

I also just read that the SM.82 was drasically underpowered - If it had had beter engines....who knows.

 

[plan_D]

Italian designs seemed to be complicated to the point that even a larger industrial nation would stuggle to mass produce them. I don't know about the SM.82 though.

The under-powered engines is almost always a given with the Italians.

 

[mosquitoman]

For lifting capacity the Avro York needs a mention, from 1945 to the Berlin Airlift, it was always there

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

that's true, her lancaster origins meant she lift huge loads!! (sorry, had to get that one in)

 

[cheddar cheese]

The York is a Beauty.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

yet you do not like the looks of the lanc?

 

[cheddar cheese]

No, they look completely different

 

[plan_D]

I'll still say C-47 as the supreme transport of World War 2 merely because of the ease of produce, wide service (among Allied and Axis nations) and "combat" record.

The C-47 was a plane "...born to fly...", it was loved by many, if not all, of it's pilots. "The C-47 takes off on its own. To fly in the air is not necessary - the C-47 flies by itself. You just tell it where to go and make it behave. To land the C-47 is another thing. You must force it to the ground - it wants to keep flying." (Quotes from Otha C. Spencer)

One thing people forget about transport missions of the war was those flown over 'The Hump'. That transport route was the only way to "ship" supplies to China. The U.S Air Transport Command (ATC) had promised to deliver 10,000 tons a month to China for lend-lease - in November 1943 they reached 13,000 tons!

They had to fly over mountains that sometimes went up to 20,000 feet! The average loss rate in 1943 was one aircraft for every 200 flights. Over the three years of Hump flights ATC lost 468 aircraft; averaging at 13 per month.
When pilots, crews and passengers had to bail out - the jungle canopy often waited below their feet to tangle up their 'chute strings. They would sometimes dangle 150 feet above the floor for hours, days or weeks until they died.

 

[evangilder]

The C-47 did do it's duty across the Hump, but the latter half of that was mostly done by C-46s. The loss numbers you state seem a bit low, but I have seen a wide variety of numbers between about 500 to over 1000!

There were 4 routes over the hump; Able at 21,000 feet, Bravo at 19,000 feet, charlie at 17,000 and later as the Japanese were push southward, Dog route at 15,000 feet.

Because of the altitudes involved and the peaks crossed, crews would leave their bases in India and climb above the base to altitude before crossing. Many times, they had to do this on instruments as the weather was often uncooperative.

July of 1945 was the peak of the operation, with over 71,000 tons of cargo delivered. At the time, an aircraft was crossing the hump every 72 seconds and supplies were being deilvered into China at a rate of a ton every 15 seconds!

Again the numbers vary alot, but there were approximately 1,300 crewmen lost during the hump operation. Bailing out over the hump was indeed an uncertain fate, but surprisingly, about 1,100 crewmen who did managed to survive and make it back. Part of the reason for that was a unit called "Blackie's Raiders". This was the fore-runner to the Air Force Pararescue service. They began search and rescue missions with C-47s and later used L-4s and were one of the first units ever to use helicopters.

Sometimes during the search and rescue missions, flight surgeons and other crews would jump out of the C-47 to assist with medical needs and provide supplies and extra men to help get out the downed crews. But the Himalayas are tough. In some cases, men were only able to travel 1 mile per day because of the rugged terrain.

Your timing on this was great, d. I just gave a presentation on the C-46 on Saturday and got to have a guest, Wally Brown, who was a radio operator in the C-46 that flew 106 hump missions. IN 106 missions, they had one problem, an engine failure 2 hours into the mission. He said the C-46 was incredibly reliable in the CBI. He did say the C-47 was good as well, but he didn't fly in one.

I am certainly not taking anything away from the C-47, which I believe is one of the greatest cargo aircraft in history. From it's early airline service, to cargo duties worldwide, to airline service post war. In some places, the C-47 is still in use as a cargo aircraft!