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And I stand by my words - compared tro other German aircraft in quality and construction it WAS crap, at the same time it was one of the most innovative aircraft of the warThese are your exact words about this German fighter: "NO - although innovative, as a safe reliable combat aircraft it was crap." All that was said about the 262 was its performance superiority over all Allied aircraft in combat, nothing about safety and reliability. With its performance it is indeed a superior fighter to any other in that war. And that is not crap. Also, my contention that Allied propaganda was constantly at play is correct.
I don't have to, there are 36 pages in this thread and I don't want to go through your runarounds. Who do you think you are?
And I stand by my words - compared tro other German aircraft in quality and construction it WAS crap, at the same time it was one of the most innovative aircraft of the war
I'M AN A&P MECHANIC AND IA (IF YOU KNOW WHAT THAT EVEN IS) WHO HOLDS A COMMERCIAL PILOT'S CERTIFICATE AND I AM ALSO AN INSTRUMENT FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. I'VE BEEN IN AVIATION FOR 29 YEARS AND HAVE WORKED ON (AS A MAINTAINER) EVERYTHING FROM CESSNA 150S TO DC-10S. I HAVE MAINTAINED AND FLOWN JETS (L-29, L-39, T-33S AND AN F-4) TO NAME A FEW AS WELL AS SINGLE ENGINE CESSNAS FROM THE 150 THROUGH THE C-210T. NOW I'LL TELL YOU WHAT I'M NOT – AN ARMCHAIR NOOBE WHO HAS MOST OF HIS FLIGHT TIME SITTING IN COACH EATING PEANUTS. I AM ALSO THE ONE THAT WILL BOUNCE YOUR SILLY @SS OFF THIS FORUM IN A NEW YORK MINUTE THE NEXT TIME YOU COME UP WITH A SMART@SS REMARK – NOW I HOPE I HAVE MADE MYSELF PERFECTLY CLEAR!
There is nothing wrong with your opinion, we appreciate something to back it up with. There are some moderators here however who won't tolerate "an armchair" coming on here talking sh*t. I'm not saying I'm god's gift to aviation but when a seemingly non-pilot (and judging by by Mr. Burador's response) or non maintainer attempts to tell someone who been there/ done that, not only does it piss us off, they will find themselves in a pissing contest they will not win.Hey come on guy's
it should be okay to voice an opinion in this forum right? nobody is saying that Flyboy woudn't know what he is talking about. So can we all including
Burador cool down ?8)
Good posts - the P-59 did not live up to what is should be - that's one of the reasons why Bell just about ceased to exist after WW2 as a capable aircraft manufacturer (the union also had a lot to do with it). But with that said, it was a start, just like the He 179 was Germany's first step and the same way the Gloster E 28/39 was to the UK - the US did have an advantage in that the UK gave us the engine technology but in essence it was a "first step.The below text says, that all three Ju 90 possesed the Trapo (Transport-klappe)-(Ramp)
Da alle drei Flugzeuge (Ju 90) über die so genannte Trapoklappe verfügten, konnten sie über diese auch kleinere Kraftfahrzeuge bis zum Schützenpanzer Sd.Kfz.222 oder 250 verladen und transportieren.
Somewhere maybe in the Junkers book there is a nice picture showing a Sd.Kfz.250 moving into the Ju 90.
On the inserted picture one can see this ramp quite clearly on a Ju 290.
Regarding the "best plane" as I already forwarded to you it could also be a B-29, it just depends on what priorities or capabilities – contributions you personally set up.
As for the Me-262 I will still say that it was the best plane in WWII to me, not only due to the fact that almost every literature refers to it as the most known plane in WWII, but also to the facts that I have already stated several times, it marked a new era in aviation.
The missions it could fulfill are known to you just as well as to me, so I do not understand why you are demanding proof on something that you also know.
The Me-262 could perform as a Ground attack plane just as a Bf-109 but 200 km faster.
The Me-262 could perform as a fighter just as any other prop but 200 km faster
The Me-262 could perform as a nightfighter just as any other prop but 200 km faster
The Me-262 could perform as a reconnaissance plane just as any other prop but 200km faster.
And please don't tell me now, no only 164km, or 137,5km, fact is that speed was more or less the only factor to guarantee survival and supremacy against overwhelming odds it would be "the" deciding factor for any plane, especially from German point of view. And more then 100km is a deciding factor and not if a FwD is 2 or 5 km faster then a P-51. That the reliability was not always given is known, but a Mustang or Tempest that has engine problems also wouldn't be performing in any way.
The fact that it changed prop aviation in general to jet aviation is off larger historic proportions to me then the undisputed logistic contributions of a C-47.
And before the showing of the Me-262 or 163, especially the Americans where clinging on to piston planes, otherwise how would you explain 3 years of research ending up in a useless performance of a P 59.
That it did not contribute to a "change in history" is obvious nevertheless the above attributes make it to the best plane in WWII. If this opinion is not shared by others, well I wont die, cry or whatever.
I see that you're also a moderator besides being an etc., etc., etc., and throwing your weight around. That is not my concern and it doesn't faze me. I'm as old as you are, I have 2 kids in college, one in graduate school. So you don't yank me around like a child. OKAY?!
Hey come on guy's
it should be okay to voice an opinion in this forum right?
Wespe said:The below text says, that all three Ju 90 possesed the Trapo (Transport-klappe)-(Ramp)
Da alle drei Flugzeuge (Ju 90) über die so genannte Trapoklappe verfügten, konnten sie über diese auch kleinere Kraftfahrzeuge bis zum Schützenpanzer Sd.Kfz.222 oder 250 verladen und transportieren.
Somewhere maybe in the Junkers book there is a nice picture showing a Sd.Kfz.250 moving into the Ju 90.
On the inserted picture one can see this ramp quite clearly on a Ju 290.
Wespe said:The missions it could fulfill are known to you just as well as to me, so I do not understand why you are demanding proof on something that you also know.
Wespe said:The fact that it changed prop aviation in general to jet aviation is off larger historic proportions to me then the undisputed logistic contributions of a C-47.
Wespe said:And before the showing of the Me-262 or 163, especially the Americans where clinging on to piston planes, otherwise how would you explain 3 years of research ending up in a useless performance of a P 59.
Wespe said:That it did not contribute to a "change in history" is obvious nevertheless the above attributes make it to the best plane in WWII. If this opinion is not shared by others, well I wont die, cry or whatever.
I see that you're also a moderator besides being an etc., etc., etc., and throwing your weight around. That is not my concern and it doesn't faze me. I'm as old as you are, I have 2 kids in college, one in graduate school. So you don't yank me around like a child. OKAY?!
Yep - another meatball....Ooops I see he allready left us...
I think I know the photo you're talking about - I've been told it was a fake (it's real location was Wright Patterson). I don't have anything in my archives maybe one of the other members can come up with something.Hi Flyboy,
maybe you got some info for me on the following.
Many sources state that the P59 was not send to Europe during WWII. However I remember having seen a colour photo showing P59 in Italy, stating that they arrived 2 weeks before the war ended.
True or do I mix up something ?
It was the P-80 that arrived in Italy at the end of the war not the P-59. The P-80s were flying CAPs there but did not see any combat. It wainly a show of force to say "Hey we got a jet too!".
You don't get it do you? "the most influential in the role it played in WWII" did I ever state that the C-47 did NOT PLAY AN INFLUENTIAL ROLE IN LOGISTICS????
You try to show me your knowledge about the inventory about the USAF or what?
It is obvious to me, that todays modern and desisive fighter aircraft are jet propelled and not props. No matter if the Argentinians are producing Pampas (cant remember the dam name right now) and Brazilians Tucanos.
Since the Me-262 did go into action in March 45, off course their was no big contribution to WWII on German behalf, and every kid knows Germany lost the war. And because the US won, everything that contributed to WWII must off course be American or in the worst case British, otherwise how could they have won? And the best tank in WWII was the Sherman, because it influenced the Abrahms (they both have a cannon) and It contributed to winning the war.
If every future discussion comes down to contribution (winning) towards the WWII, than what do you want to discuss about ?
The Ta 152 better than .......
Answer NO because it didn't contribute
The 109 better than .....
Answer NO because it didn't contribute
MK 108 better than ...........
Answer NO because it didn't contribute
Did the Germans have anything at all?
Answer NO because it didn't contribute
Anything else?
Agree - my point here was the early jet aircraft were unrelaible and sometime dangerous. Becuase of the wartime urgency the Me 262 utilized material and contruction techniques that were somewhat crude.When'ever it worked the Me-262 was the best fighter to hit the air during WWII, and besides its engine troubles (Which were significant) it was actually a very sound fighter.
Nope, that photo I am refering to showed P-59s. And without opening another discussion for today, please refer to the text below.
The Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star became the United State's Air Force's first jet-powered fighter on December 3, 1945. Shortly before the Second World War ended, about 45 had been delivered though only two made it to the European Theater and neither ever saw any combat.
It is 0730 in Asia now and I really need to go to sleep.
See you next time - I mean contra you next time