Best World War II Aircraft?

[FLYBOYJ]

These are your exact words about this German fighter: "NO - although innovative, as a safe reliable combat aircraft it was crap." All that was said about the 262 was its performance superiority over all Allied aircraft in combat, nothing about safety and reliability. With its performance it is indeed a superior fighter to any other in that war. And that is not crap. Also, my contention that Allied propaganda was constantly at play is correct.

And I stand by my words - compared tro other German aircraft in quality and construction it WAS crap, at the same time it was one of the most innovative aircraft of the war

I don't have to, there are 36 pages in this thread and I don't want to go through your runarounds. Who do you think you are?

I'M AN A&P MECHANIC AND IA (IF YOU KNOW WHAT THAT EVEN IS) WHO HOLDS A COMMERCIAL PILOT'S CERTIFICATE AND I AM ALSO AN INSTRUMENT FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. I'VE BEEN IN AVIATION FOR 29 YEARS AND HAVE WORKED ON (AS A MAINTAINER) EVERYTHING FROM CESSNA 150S TO DC-10S. I HAVE MAINTAINED AND FLOWN JETS (L-29, L-39, T-33S AND AN F-4) TO NAME A FEW AS WELL AS SINGLE ENGINE CESSNAS FROM THE 150 THROUGH THE C-210T. NOW I'LL TELL YOU WHAT I'M NOT – AN ARMCHAIR NOOBE WHO HAS MOST OF HIS FLIGHT TIME SITTING IN COACH EATING PEANUTS. I AM ALSO THE ONE THAT WILL BOUNCE YOUR SILLY @SS OFF THIS FORUM IN A NEW YORK MINUTE THE NEXT TIME YOU COME UP WITH A SMART@SS REMARK – NOW I HOPE I HAVE MADE MYSELF PERFECTLY CLEAR!

 

[Wespe]

Hey come on guy's

it should be okay to voice an opinion in this forum right? nobody is saying that Flyboy woudn't know what he is talking about. So can we all including
Burador cool down ?8)


The below text says, that all three Ju 90 possesed the Trapo (Transport-klappe)-(Ramp)
Da alle drei Flugzeuge (Ju 90) über die so genannte Trapoklappe verfügten, konnten sie über diese auch kleinere Kraftfahrzeuge bis zum Schützenpanzer Sd.Kfz.222 oder 250 verladen und transportieren.
Somewhere maybe in the Junkers book there is a nice picture showing a Sd.Kfz.250 moving into the Ju 90.
On the inserted picture one can see this ramp quite clearly on a Ju 290.

Regarding the "best plane" as I already forwarded to you it could also be a B-29, it just depends on what priorities or capabilities – contributions you personally set up.

As for the Me-262 I will still say that it was the best plane in WWII to me, not only due to the fact that almost every literature refers to it as the most known plane in WWII, but also to the facts that I have already stated several times, it marked a new era in aviation.
The missions it could fulfill are known to you just as well as to me, so I do not understand why you are demanding proof on something that you also know.

The Me-262 could perform as a Ground attack plane just as a Bf-109 but 200 km faster.
The Me-262 could perform as a fighter just as any other prop but 200 km faster
The Me-262 could perform as a nightfighter just as any other prop but 200 km faster
The Me-262 could perform as a reconnaissance plane just as any other prop but 200km faster.
And please don't tell me now, no only 164km, or 137,5km, fact is that speed was more or less the only factor to guarantee survival and supremacy against overwhelming odds it would be "the" deciding factor for any plane, especially from German point of view. And more then 100km is a deciding factor and not if a FwD is 2 or 5 km faster then a P-51. That the reliability was not always given is known, but a Mustang or Tempest that has engine problems also wouldn't be performing in any way.
The fact that it changed prop aviation in general to jet aviation is off larger historic proportions to me then the undisputed logistic contributions of a C-47.
And before the showing of the Me-262 or 163, especially the Americans where clinging on to piston planes, otherwise how would you explain 3 years of research ending up in a useless performance of a P 59.
That it did not contribute to a "change in history" is obvious nevertheless the above attributes make it to the best plane in WWII. If this opinion is not shared by others, well I wont die, cry or whatever.

 

[Burador]

And I stand by my words - compared tro other German aircraft in quality and construction it WAS crap, at the same time it was one of the most innovative aircraft of the war





I'M AN A&P MECHANIC AND IA (IF YOU KNOW WHAT THAT EVEN IS) WHO HOLDS A COMMERCIAL PILOT'S CERTIFICATE AND I AM ALSO AN INSTRUMENT FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR. I'VE BEEN IN AVIATION FOR 29 YEARS AND HAVE WORKED ON (AS A MAINTAINER) EVERYTHING FROM CESSNA 150S TO DC-10S. I HAVE MAINTAINED AND FLOWN JETS (L-29, L-39, T-33S AND AN F-4) TO NAME A FEW AS WELL AS SINGLE ENGINE CESSNAS FROM THE 150 THROUGH THE C-210T. NOW I'LL TELL YOU WHAT I'M NOT – AN ARMCHAIR NOOBE WHO HAS MOST OF HIS FLIGHT TIME SITTING IN COACH EATING PEANUTS. I AM ALSO THE ONE THAT WILL BOUNCE YOUR SILLY @SS OFF THIS FORUM IN A NEW YORK MINUTE THE NEXT TIME YOU COME UP WITH A SMART@SS REMARK – NOW I HOPE I HAVE MADE MYSELF PERFECTLY CLEAR!

I see that you're also a moderator besides being an etc., etc., etc., and throwing your weight around. That is not my concern and it doesn't faze me. I'm as old as you are, I have 2 kids in college, one in graduate school. So you don't yank me around like a child. OKAY?!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hey come on guy's

it should be okay to voice an opinion in this forum right? nobody is saying that Flyboy woudn't know what he is talking about. So can we all including
Burador cool down ?8)

There is nothing wrong with your opinion, we appreciate something to back it up with. There are some moderators here however who won't tolerate "an armchair" coming on here talking sh*t. I'm not saying I'm god's gift to aviation but when a seemingly non-pilot (and judging by by Mr. Burador's response) or non maintainer attempts to tell someone who been there/ done that, not only does it piss us off, they will find themselves in a pissing contest they will not win.

Now.....

The below text says, that all three Ju 90 possesed the Trapo (Transport-klappe)-(Ramp)
Da alle drei Flugzeuge (Ju 90) über die so genannte Trapoklappe verfügten, konnten sie über diese auch kleinere Kraftfahrzeuge bis zum Schützenpanzer Sd.Kfz.222 oder 250 verladen und transportieren.
Somewhere maybe in the Junkers book there is a nice picture showing a Sd.Kfz.250 moving into the Ju 90.
On the inserted picture one can see this ramp quite clearly on a Ju 290.

Regarding the "best plane" as I already forwarded to you it could also be a B-29, it just depends on what priorities or capabilities – contributions you personally set up.

As for the Me-262 I will still say that it was the best plane in WWII to me, not only due to the fact that almost every literature refers to it as the most known plane in WWII, but also to the facts that I have already stated several times, it marked a new era in aviation.
The missions it could fulfill are known to you just as well as to me, so I do not understand why you are demanding proof on something that you also know.

The Me-262 could perform as a Ground attack plane just as a Bf-109 but 200 km faster.
The Me-262 could perform as a fighter just as any other prop but 200 km faster
The Me-262 could perform as a nightfighter just as any other prop but 200 km faster
The Me-262 could perform as a reconnaissance plane just as any other prop but 200km faster.
And please don't tell me now, no only 164km, or 137,5km, fact is that speed was more or less the only factor to guarantee survival and supremacy against overwhelming odds it would be "the" deciding factor for any plane, especially from German point of view. And more then 100km is a deciding factor and not if a FwD is 2 or 5 km faster then a P-51. That the reliability was not always given is known, but a Mustang or Tempest that has engine problems also wouldn't be performing in any way.
The fact that it changed prop aviation in general to jet aviation is off larger historic proportions to me then the undisputed logistic contributions of a C-47.
And before the showing of the Me-262 or 163, especially the Americans where clinging on to piston planes, otherwise how would you explain 3 years of research ending up in a useless performance of a P 59.
That it did not contribute to a "change in history" is obvious nevertheless the above attributes make it to the best plane in WWII. If this opinion is not shared by others, well I wont die, cry or whatever.

Good posts - the P-59 did not live up to what is should be - that's one of the reasons why Bell just about ceased to exist after WW2 as a capable aircraft manufacturer (the union also had a lot to do with it). But with that said, it was a start, just like the He 179 was Germany's first step and the same way the Gloster E 28/39 was to the UK - the US did have an advantage in that the UK gave us the engine technology but in essence it was a "first step.

BTW - the P-59 was used by the USAAF and USN for trainers and I think they stayed around until the late 40s.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I see that you're also a moderator besides being an etc., etc., etc., and throwing your weight around. That is not my concern and it doesn't faze me. I'm as old as you are, I have 2 kids in college, one in graduate school. So you don't yank me around like a child. OKAY?!

OK - say good bye to the weakest link.... I see you're too stupid to keep your mouth shut....

You must be proud of your kids - I hope they have their mother's brains.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hey come on guy's

it should be okay to voice an opinion in this forum right?

Voicing an opinion is everyones right. To start throwing out an attitude with comments such as "Who do you think you are" is not the right thing to do in this forum. And that is for anyone to anyone.

The below text says, that all three Ju 90 possesed the Trapo (Transport-klappe)-(Ramp)
Da alle drei Flugzeuge (Ju 90) über die so genannte Trapoklappe verfügten, konnten sie über diese auch kleinere Kraftfahrzeuge bis zum Schützenpanzer Sd.Kfz.222 oder 250 verladen und transportieren.
Somewhere maybe in the Junkers book there is a nice picture showing a Sd.Kfz.250 moving into the Ju 90.
On the inserted picture one can see this ramp quite clearly on a Ju 290.

Yeah I found that as well, when I went back to my books.

The missions it could fulfill are known to you just as well as to me, so I do not understand why you are demanding proof on something that you also know.

Because you said it was the most versatile aircraft, which it was not. The most versatile aircraft can perform the most roles. The Me-262 could at best perform 4 to 5 roles.

Aircraft such as the Ju-88, Mossie and B-25 could perform the same roles as the Me-262 plus a lot more, therefore were more versatile. Do you understand what I am saying now?

The fact that it changed prop aviation in general to jet aviation is off larger historic proportions to me then the undisputed logistic contributions of a C-47.

I disagree because this discussion is about the best aircraft of "WW2" not "post WW2". Therefore it should be based off what the aircraft did in the immediate conflict. The C-47 had a larger historic role in that sense. I am not saying the C-47 was the best aircraft per say but it was the best aircraft in WW2 based off what it accomplished.

And before the showing of the Me-262 or 163, especially the Americans where clinging on to piston planes, otherwise how would you explain 3 years of research ending up in a useless performance of a P 59.

The P-59 led to the P-80 which was a decent jet fighter.

Besides the US and the rest of allies were not into building super weapons in that sense. They just wanted to win the war. How do you do that? You build stuff that is easy to build, easy to maintain. You mass produce it numbers that overwelm the enemy and you defeat them with those numbers.

Why put a big fraction of research and development into stuff that is going to take time to perfect when you can build lots of P-51s, B-17s, B-24s, Spitfires, Lancasters, P-47s and get the war over with.

That it did not contribute to a "change in history" is obvious nevertheless the above attributes make it to the best plane in WWII. If this opinion is not shared by others, well I wont die, cry or whatever.

No it did not change history, but lessons learned from it led to the P-80.

If you really want to be techincal the Me-262 did not change history either. The invention of the jet engine did, and as I stated above there were other German designs that influenced post war jet technology more than the Me-262.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I see that you're also a moderator besides being an etc., etc., etc., and throwing your weight around. That is not my concern and it doesn't faze me. I'm as old as you are, I have 2 kids in college, one in graduate school. So you don't yank me around like a child. OKAY?!

You see that was on called for. You started the pissing match!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ooops I see he allready left us...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Ooops I see he allready left us...

Yep - another meatball....

 

[Wespe]

Hi Flyboy,

maybe you got some info for me on the following.

Many sources state that the P59 was not send to Europe during WWII. However I remember having seen a colour photo showing P59 in Italy, stating that they arrived 2 weeks before the war ended.
True or do I mix up something ?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hi Flyboy,

maybe you got some info for me on the following.

Many sources state that the P59 was not send to Europe during WWII. However I remember having seen a colour photo showing P59 in Italy, stating that they arrived 2 weeks before the war ended.
True or do I mix up something ?

I think I know the photo you're talking about - I've been told it was a fake (it's real location was Wright Patterson). I don't have anything in my archives maybe one of the other members can come up with something.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It was the P-80 that arrived in Italy at the end of the war not the P-59. The P-80s were flying CAPs there but did not see any combat. It wainly a show of force to say "Hey we got a jet too!".

 

[Gimmeacannon!]

Why wasnt the Fw 187 put to better use? it was a better box of tricks than the 210 and left the 110 in the dust, looking for plans for a 187 by the way for model construction if anyone knows where I can find them.

 

[Wespe]

It was the P-80 that arrived in Italy at the end of the war not the P-59. The P-80s were flying CAPs there but did not see any combat. It wainly a show of force to say "Hey we got a jet too!".

Nope, that photo I am refering to showed P-59s. And without opening another discussion for today, please refer to the text below.

The Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star became the United State's Air Force's first jet-powered fighter on December 3, 1945. Shortly before the Second World War ended, about 45 had been delivered though only two made it to the European Theater and neither ever saw any combat.

It is 0730 in Asia now and I really need to go to sleep.
See you next time - I mean contra you next time

 

[Civettone]

One P-59 was given to the British in exchange for a Meteor. So 1 Aerocomet did end up in Europe.

As to the Fw 187, I'm sure there have been several discussions concerning this great aircraft before. So I'll keep it short: the Fw 187 did not fit into the requirements of the Luftwaffe, as it was a private project of the Fw company. The RLM did not see enough reason to stop production of either the Bf 109 or the Bf 110 for the Falke as it could not replace any of these with full satisfaction. For instance, the Fw 187 did not have a rear gunner which was thought to be essential for the Zerstörer the Germans were after. When Tank installed one, it was considered to be inadequate. Furthermore, the Bf 110 was considered "good enough" to continue production, also because there was no war in sight.
The He 100 is a similar story btw, nothing to do with politics, just rationally thinking about production numbers.

Kris

 

[mkloby]

You don't get it do you? "the most influential in the role it played in WWII" did I ever state that the C-47 did NOT PLAY AN INFLUENTIAL ROLE IN LOGISTICS????

You try to show me your knowledge about the inventory about the USAF or what?
It is obvious to me, that todays modern and desisive fighter aircraft are jet propelled and not props. No matter if the Argentinians are producing Pampas (cant remember the dam name right now) and Brazilians Tucanos.
Since the Me-262 did go into action in March 45, off course their was no big contribution to WWII on German behalf, and every kid knows Germany lost the war. And because the US won, everything that contributed to WWII must off course be American or in the worst case British, otherwise how could they have won? And the best tank in WWII was the Sherman, because it influenced the Abrahms (they both have a cannon) and It contributed to winning the war.
If every future discussion comes down to contribution (winning) towards the WWII, than what do you want to discuss about ?

The Ta 152 better than .......
Answer NO because it didn't contribute
The 109 better than .....
Answer NO because it didn't contribute
MK 108 better than ...........
Answer NO because it didn't contribute
Did the Germans have anything at all?
Answer NO because it didn't contribute


Anything else?

Wespe - you stated that the me262 drove props into history. I gave you a short list of current US aircraft in the inventory that are props. Of those listed, only the T-6 and C-130s are currently used by the USAF. My current aircraft, the C-12, is in a navy squadron. There is also currently a push in the USAF to procure armored AT-6 Texan IIs to use for light attack/recon. Props are far from fading into history.

It just comes down to what "best" means to each person. Maybe you'd be surprised to know that my favorite A/C is the Bf109F-4. No one is chest thumping by saying the 47 was the best. Regardless - it's a good discussion, tempers just always seem to flare in these "best" threads.

Cheers,
matt

 

[Soren]

When'ever it worked the Me-262 was the best fighter to hit the air during WWII, and besides its engine troubles (Which were significant) it was actually a very sound fighter.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

When'ever it worked the Me-262 was the best fighter to hit the air during WWII, and besides its engine troubles (Which were significant) it was actually a very sound fighter.

Agree - my point here was the early jet aircraft were unrelaible and sometime dangerous. Becuase of the wartime urgency the Me 262 utilized material and contruction techniques that were somewhat crude.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Nope, that photo I am refering to showed P-59s. And without opening another discussion for today, please refer to the text below.

The Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star became the United State's Air Force's first jet-powered fighter on December 3, 1945. Shortly before the Second World War ended, about 45 had been delivered though only two made it to the European Theater and neither ever saw any combat.

It is 0730 in Asia now and I really need to go to sleep.
See you next time - I mean contra you next time

If the photo was the aircraft in Italy near the end of the war than it was P-80s not P-59s. It was labeled wrong then. As stated below one P-59 was sent to England so the British could test it. It was not put on operational sorties.

2 P-80s however arrived in Italy and were put on Combat Air Patrol mission but never enganed any German aircraft.

Also the P-380 did not become the US first operational Jet Fighter on December 3, 1945. It was in late 1944 that they began to be given to units.

Here is some info for you below.

The only P-59 to go England was YP-59A (S/n: 42-22611) and exchanged for a Gloster Meteor.

A total of 4 P-80s were sent to Europe in January of 1945. 2 to England and 2 to Italy. The unit in Italy that recieved them was the 1st Fighter Group based out of Lesina, Italy.

Major Frederic Borsodi was killed in a crash caused by an engine fire on 28 January 1945, demonstrating YP-80A 44-83026 at RAF Burtonwood.

Because of this the P-80 was grounded. Because of this delay they did not see any combat.

1st Fighter Group received two YP-80A jet fighters (serials 44-83028 and 44-83029) sent to the theater for operational testing ("Project Extraversion"). Although the jets were marked for combat operations with easily identifiable tail stripes and the letters 'A' and 'B' on their noses, and flown on two operational sorties by the 94th FS, neither saw combat before the end of the war.

 

[Parmigiano]

Yes, there were 2 P80 in Italy, based in Lesina close to Foggia.
There was some speculation that they were sent to counter the 'Pamperos' (nickname given to the AR234) based in Lonate Pozzolo, but it does not seem realistic: Foggia is in the deep south, the YP80 were almost at the end of their range before reaching the area where the few remaining Germans were flying.

Most likely they were sent only for test and 'advertising' purposes.