bf110 exchange ratio

davebender said:

The entire UK would be protected. However areas outside of Me-109 range need only be protected by second rate fighter aircraft like the Gloster Gladiator and Bristol Beaufighter.

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The Gladiator would get minced by an Me110 and as far as I remember we only had two squadrons the beaufighter wasnt available until 1941. The North sea is a large area the fighters protecting it must be faster than the bombers by a substantial margin even with radar.

How many Luftwaffe bf-109 -110 were shot down by Flak operating in hostile airpsaces over England?

Unknown, but very, very few. In the whole of the british isles, on the eve of the battle, there were 1200 heavy and 582 light AA guns. The majority of the heavy guns were wwI types, with insufficent performance to seriously challenge the Luftwaffe. Over a third of the guns were immobile, and a further third (roughly) sent to distant locations like Scapa to protect RN fleet bases.

By comparison the German flak defences at this time numbered at leat 9200 guns. Yet German flak against strategic targets was not a major factor until the latter part of the following year, after the introduction on a wide scale of RDF to the flak defences.

In the whole of 1940, the British flak defences brought down a total of 440 german aircraft, according to westermann. Conversely, in January of 1941, German flak accounted for just 13 British BC aircraft. In April, British losses to flak were just 36 aircraft, whilst total loses amounted to over 200 with a further 200 or so damaged.

General Pile comments in his book that in 1940, the equipment of British AA Defenders "were suficient in quality to threaten the bombers of anything but the bombers of twenty years previously"

How many were lost in landing/taxiing/starting accidents? Finally, how many were lost to non operational issues (returned to factories for overhaul/repair, send to other units, expired service lifetime and so on)?

A huge percentage, as was being lost by the RAF under similar circumstances. During the Phoney war, the LW was losing, on average, 5-7% of its force structure every month to accidents and non-combat related courses. I expect the RAF was suffering a similar attrition rate

And what are the corresponding figures for RAF units, including non RAF squads involved. By the way, there were actions involving long range bf-110 in the North Sea up to Scapa Flow and beyond in long range sea patrol.

Me 110s were not equipped with LR tanks until the following April, which caused a great deal of consternation to the squadrons Of Coaastal Command detailed to suppress German shipping of Norway. Blenheims were used mostly in this role, without a great deal of success, and operated beyond the effective range of Me110s operating without the LR tanks. Once these were fitted, the convoy escorts were able to reach the operating areas of the attacking CC aircraft, and inclict heavy losses on them, for virtually no loss to themselves.

Me 110s were not considered an effective long range maritime escort aircraft, even by the LW until the fitting of these tanks.

I could imagine that CC encountered some either long range -110 or long range float planes (usually Do-18/-24, but only a very limited number in action).

True, but they were deadly once given the range capabilities to attack the CC aircraft. ]

davebender said:

The entire UK would be protected. However areas outside of Me-109 range need only be protected by second rate fighter aircraft like the Gloster Gladiator and Bristol Beaufighter.

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So are you admiting the Me 110 could not compete even with Gladiators and Blenheim 1Fs??? If so, how can you then argue with a straight face that the me110 was superior to Spifires and Hurricaners when operating as an escort fighter.

The Me 110 could have an effect when not operating as a bomber escort. It was 30 Mph faster than a hurricane, and packed a heavy forward firing armament. It dove well. It climbed like a dog and turned even worse. Thos two factors made it unsuitable as a bomber escort, and of only limited value as an interceptor. In the battles over France in the following year, it had virtually no impact despite several occasions of being committed quite heavily in the circus battles that developed over Northern France at the time.

tail end charlie said:

The Gladiator would get minced by an Me110 and as far as I remember we only had two squadrons the beaufighter wasnt available until 1941. The North sea is a large area the fighters protecting it must be faster than the bombers by a substantial margin even with radar.

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I suspect that the Gladiator would do OK as the Fulmar did against the Me110, but an effective defence against even unescorted bombers was needed, and only the Hurricane and Spitfire could provide it. The Luftwaffe did launch a raid from Norway and Denmark against the supposedly defenceless Northern UK and it got shredded so bad, despite the presence of the vaunted Me-110, that they never tried it again:

. It was the calm before the storm. August 15th saw the heaviest fighting of the whole battle...

For some time now the Germans had been waiting for this moment—the moment when the weather would be right for a concerted onslaught by all three Luftflotten. This, it will be remembered, was how they had planned to open the intensive phase of their campaign. While Luftflotte 2 attacked the south-east, and Luftflotte 3 the south, Luftflotte 5, in Norway and Denmark, would operate against the north-east. The British fighters would thus be engaged

--166--

all along the line, If Dowding had stripped the north to thicken up his defences in the south, Tyneside and the bomber airfields of Yorkshire would suffer in full measure.

The first blow was struck at the south-east. At 1129, two German formations, amounting to about sixty Ju.87's escorted by fifty Me.109's, crossed the coast between Dover and Dungeness; a third formation, of fighters only, was driven back before it reached out shores. Two of the four British squadrons ordered up—Nos. 54 and 501—made skilful interceptions; and of the several airfields that were attack, only the little-used Lympne suffered much damage.

Then, while the Channel remained the scene of repeated alarums and excursions, so that No. 11 Group was continually forced to put up patrols, the attacks began against the north-east. At 1208, nearly an hour before the enemy eventually crossed the coast between Blyth and Acklington, the Operations Room table at No. 13 Group showed its first plot of German aircraft. They were opposite the Firth of Forth, nearly a hundred miles out to sea; and they were heading south-west. With such good warning five British squadrons were soon on patrol. No .72 Squadron intercepted thirty miles out beyond the Farne Islands; it reported that the enemy, so far from number some thirty, as indicated by our radar, consisted of about a hundred He.111's and seventy Me.110's. This sort of mistake was not infrequent in 1940, for though our radar stations at this time gave very accurate information about the enemy's bearing, they were much less reliable in their estimates of height and number. Nothing daunted, the squadron sailed in, caught the Germans by surprise, inflicted heavy losses, and split the broad mass of the raiders in twain. One of the resulting formations was savagely mauled by No 79 Squadron before it reached the coast; and as soon as our shores were gained the Me.110's, short of petrol and very unhappy in the presence of Hurricanes and Spitfires, turned and fled. Despite our attacks most of the He.111's managed to cross the coast, but they were then so harassed by Nos. 41, 605 and 607 Squadrons, with the Tees and Tyneside guns joining in, that their bombing went entirely astray. Not a single factory or airfield was hit. All that the enemy pilots could show for their efforts was the destruction of twenty-four houses at Sunderland.

Meanwhile another German formation from the Scandinavian bases was heading for Scarborough, a hundred miles to the south. Against this threat, four British squadrons were already on guard. No 616 Squadron was the first to engage, ten miles out beyond Flamborough Head. No 73 Squadron followed. Together their attacks resulted in the destruction of several of the enemy; but the

--167--

bulk of the formation, consisting of fifty Ju.88's, pressed on and crossed the coast. Some then turned north to join in the attacks on Tees and Tyneside, while others turned south. They were pursued, completely in vain, by the makeshift Blenheim fighters of No. 219 Squadron, one of which chased a Ju.88 for 160 miles over land and sea without getting close than 600 yards. Nevertheless, the enemy bombers managed to hit only two military objectives. one of these, presumably struck by accident, was an ammunition dump near Bridlington. The other was the aerodrome at Driffield, where ten aircraft were destroyed and much damage was done to buildings and hangars.

The bombing of Driffield was the one item on the credit sited that the Germans could display for their operations from Norway and Denmark. Indeed, their losses were so severe that throughout the remaining weeks of the Battle of Britain they never again attempted a daylight raid against the north-east. Yet on the British side not a single fighter had been lost. The whole episode was a remarkable demonstration of the German bombers' complete impotence in the face of our defences when forced to operate by day without the company of Me.109's.
HyperWar: Royal Air Force 1939–1945: Volume I: The Fight at Odds [Chapter VI]

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RCAFson said:

I suspect that the Gladiator would do OK as the Fulmar did against the Me110, but an effective defence against even unescorted bombers was needed, and only the Hurricane and Spitfire could provide it. The Luftwaffe did launch a raid from Norway and Denmark against the supposedly defenceless Northern UK and it got shredded so bad, despite the presence of the vaunted Me-110, that they never tried it again:

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RCAF son I have read that report before but as it said the attack was decimated (in the main) by Spitfires/Hurricanes they had to call other squadrons from scotland to help though. Where blenheims were used (as it states) they were less effective. Once the LW cross the coast Radar doesnt work so it is a question of eyesight, the gladiator and blenheim were slow they just couldnt catch an attacker. Doing OK against the Bf110 is one thing it has to evade the Bf110 and get the bombers which is a different thing altogether.

I live in Teesside (mentioned in your quote) and there were much more sophisticated defences than used in many other areas because the petrochemical and steel industry was vital, it was also involved in the early days of the Nuclear programme. The whole area had smoke generators by day and false targets (fires in the country) by night + the usual air balloon and flak.

I'd be curious to know exactly what weapons are included in that 9,200 guns. 8.8cm heavy flak didn't even hit mass production until 1940. 2cm and 3.7cm weapons are useless against high flying level bombers.

Historical German Flak Production.
Production Stats on German Tube-fired Weapons 1939-1945

tail end charlie said:

RCAF son I have read that report before but as it said the attack was decimated (in the main) by Spitfires/Hurricanes they had to call other squadrons from scotland to help though. Where blenheims were used (as it states) they were less effective. Once the LW cross the coast Radar doesnt work so it is a question of eyesight, the gladiator and blenheim were slow they just couldnt catch an attacker. Doing OK against the Bf110 is one thing it has to evade the Bf110 and get the bombers which is a different thing altogether.

I live in Teesside (mentioned in your quote) and there were much more sophisticated defences than used in many other areas because the petrochemical and steel industry was vital, it was also involved in the early days of the Nuclear programme. The whole area had smoke generators by day and false targets (fires in the country) by night + the usual air balloon and flak.

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From other accounts it seems that the Northern German force consisted of:

"... 72 He IIIs, 21 Me 110s and a decoy of Heinkel 115C Floatplanes coming in from the north) and a formation of 50 Ju 88s from KG 30 based in Denmark. "
and losses were:

"23 German aircraft were shot down which included 8 He111s, 8 Bf110s and 7 Ju88s."
http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/0026.html

AFAIK, no RAF fighters were lost. Doesn't really support the claim that the Me-110 was some kind of wunder flugzeugen, does it?

RCAFson said:

From other accounts it seems that the Northern German force consisted of:

"... 72 He IIIs, 21 Me 110s and a decoy of Heinkel 115C Floatplanes coming in from the north) and a formation of 50 Ju 88s from KG 30 based in Denmark. "
and losses were:

"23 German aircraft were shot down which included 8 He111s, 8 Bf110s and 7 Ju88s."
August 14th - August 15th 1940

AFAIK, no RAF fighters were lost. Doesn't really support the claim that the Me-110 was some kind of wunder flugzeugen, does it?

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Well no, but to be fair I dont know what quality the pilots were. Also everyone on the German side were told that they would be unopposed. The Bf110s were initially identified as bombers because they had long range tanks, I think the escorts got "windy"

tail end charlie said:

Well no, but to be fair I dont know what quality the pilots were. Also everyone on the German side were told that they would be unopposed. The Bf110s were initially identified as bombers because they had long range tanks, I think the escorts got "windy"

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It seems as though the Me-110 got badly hurt whenever it met Hurricanes or Spitfires on anything like equal terms. The idea that the Me-110 was a match even for the Hurricane is a bit ridiculous.

RCAFson said:

It seems as though the Me-110 got badly hurt whenever it met Hurricanes or Spitfires on anything like equal terms. The idea that the Me-110 was a match even for the Hurricane is a bit ridiculous.

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Thats what I think too although the stats are interesting in places. The fact of ariel combat is that it rarely is one fighter against another. One fighter must be protecting or attcking something and vice versa. Fighters didnt just take off to attain superiority. The Bf110 was never designed to escort and was as good at it as I suspect a mosquito would have been. I still think as an escort it would mince a gladiator or blenheim. I still find it hard to believe that a blenheim was considered to be a fighter in anything but the name someone gave it.

While I am not advocating that the Bf 110 was even a close match for Spits or Hurris I am surprised at how ..ummm...well they did at times against the RAF.

Concerning that 15 August battle, this is what I had posted from several sources in BoB thread....

"Meanwhile the rest of the Bf 110s did their best to protect the bombers. Oblt. Uellenbeck ordered the remaining five aircraft of 2./ZG 76 to attack the British fighters and led the squadron into the battle, hitting one of the Spitfires and causing it to trail smoke. Outnumbered, the Bf 110s formed a defensive circle and tried their best to get back to base. Oblt. Gordon Gollob's 3./ZG 76 managed to stay with KG 26's bombers but after a few minutes combat with the British, the squadron was down to only four aircraft. One of those missing was Fw. Linke who managed to re-cross the North Sea on one engine and land at Jever. He was finally credited with the destruction of two Spitfires."

And I know about claims and such but it is interesting that several 110s got in some licks and that OKL would even award any claims to 110 pilots.

davebender said:

I'd be curious to know exactly what weapons are included in that 9,200 guns. 8.8cm heavy flak didn't even hit mass production until 1940. 2cm and 3.7cm weapons are useless against high flying level bombers.

Historical German Flak Production.
Production Stats on German Tube-fired Weapons 1939-1945

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I looked at your source which is put together by a person with nowhere near the credentials of westermann. Not sure how or why Jason Long (if its the jason Long that I know, he is a mediocre wargame designer, that often makes things upm, to be brutally honest).

To give further details from Westermann, on Page 83 that as of 01 September 1939, the toal flak forces and searchlight forces had a numerical strength of 2628 88mm and 105 mm guns, and 6700 20mm and 37mm guns. Dont know where this notion that the Flak 18 did not enter service until 1940., it actually was in service from 1935.

The Germans added another 6700 artillery pieces in 1940, of which over 80% were Flak guns.

Hello RCAFson
110s beated Hurricanes in France 1940 and in NA during early phase, before 109s arrived, Bf110 vs Vokes Hurricane Mk I combats resulted appr. even losses. If there was a winner it was usually the one who saw his opponent first.

Juha

Juha said:

Dave
in your opinion, why LW stopped the massive daytime air raids against London after 15 Sept, if it wasn't because of losses inflicted by FC?

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In which fantasy land did they stop bombing London after the 15 September..?

Date: 18th September 1940

Weather: Bright and squally.
Day: London and Merseyside bombed.
Night: Heavy damage to London.

Date: 19th September 1940

Weather: Showery.
Day: Reduced activity, attacks mainly over Thames Estuary and East London.
Night: Raids on London and Merseyside.

Date: 20th September 1940

Weather: Fair with bright periods, showery.
Day: One major fighter sweep towards London, otherwise reconnaissance only.
Night: Raids concentrated on London.

Date: 23rd September 1940

Weather: Fine.
Day: Fighter sweeps towards London.
Night: Attacks on London and Merseyside.

Date: 24th September 1940

Weather: Early morning fog in northern France. Channel cloudy with haze in the Straits and Thames Estuary.
Day: Tilbury and Southampton raided.
Night: Continued bombing of London and Merseyside.

Date: 25th September 1940

Weather: Fair to fine in most areas. Cool.
Day: Bristol and Plymouth bombed.
Night: London, North Wales and Lancashire attacked.

Date: 26th September 1940

Weather: Mainly fair to cloudy.
Day: Supermarine factory at Southampton attacked and wrecked.
Night: Raids on London and Merseyside.

Date: 27th September 1940

Weather: Fair in the extreme south and south-west. Cloudy in the Channel with light rain over southern England.
Day: Heavy attacks on London and Bristol.
Night: Further raids on London, Merseyside and the Midlands.

Date: 28th September 1940

Weather: The Channel, Straits and Thames Estuary cloudy otherwise generally fair to fine.
Day: Raids on London and the Solent area.
Night: Continued attacks on London.

Date: 30th September 1940

Weather: Generally fair but cloudy with light winds.
Day: Fighter sweeps towards London, but few bombs dropped.
Night: London attacked.

Date: 1st October 1940

Weather: Mainly fair, but generally cloudy.
Day: London is the main target with additional raids on Southampton and Portsmouth.
Night: London, Liverpool and Manchester are the main targets.

Date: 2nd October 1940

Weather: Blue skies during the day with cloud building up later.
Day: Fighter sweeps on south-east London and Biggin Hill.
Night: London once again is the main target. Manchester, Usworth and Aberdeen also raided.

Do I need to go on...?

RCAFson said:

From other accounts it seems that the Northern German force consisted of:

"... 72 He IIIs, 21 Me 110s and a decoy of Heinkel 115C Floatplanes coming in from the north) and a formation of 50 Ju 88s from KG 30 based in Denmark. "
and losses were:

"23 German aircraft were shot down which included 8 He111s, 8 Bf110s and 7 Ju88s."
August 14th - August 15th 1940

AFAIK, no RAF fighters were lost. Doesn't really support the claim that the Me-110 was some kind of wunder flugzeugen, does it?

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Aug-15 (North)I/ ZG76 used improvised drop tanks and removed the rear gunners. Close escort orders were given.
Subsequent research on this day revealed both: Less Bf-110 were lost than claimed here (seven recorded to be lost, one of them to non operational causes) AND three FC planes crashlanded outside the airport (records are existing for two FC pilots bailed out), another two beeing written off with damage (but returned to airport). 12 Whitley bombers were destroyed during the bombing of Driffield.
It couldn´t be verified that no RAF fighters were lost in the action. And it is one sample, does it make the result significant and representative for the whole battle? For the timeframe of close escort orders, the bf-110 still had an exchange ratio of 0.6 to one and this sample confirms that or is in the right ballpark (=0.5:1).
Nobody here or anywhere else sais that the bf-110 was a "Wunderflugzeug". The discussion circles around whether or not the bf-110 was outclassed as a dayfighter. I wonder how the Spitfire would do in the same situation? Flying with degraded ability at the edge of it´s range, facing a number of more maneuverable fighters. There is one example: Darwin. Results are somehow comparable to the Bf-110´s experience of the single event mentioned by You. Does it make the Spitfire outclassed by the Zero? I don´t think so. The Spitfire/Hurricane outclasses an Ar-196, a Ju-87, a Morane Ms406 or something along these lines but the Bf-110 is still competetive. This actually appears to be indicated by the exchange statistic between both types on a wider scope than a single, local event.

Btw, thanks Juha, Kurfürst and Parsifal for Your responses. I greatly appreciate Your inputs.

tail end charlie said:

Dave

At the time in 1940 the LW daytime losses in aircraft were exceeding their production.

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In which type, specifically? 109 production, even without considering the ones returning from repair centres, was exceeding their losses (all kinds); its probably the same for the bomber force, though I don't have monthly production for them in these months, from the beginning till the end of the frontline bomber strenght remained rock steadily at around 1400 or, with a few dozen more bombers on strenght than with what they started the campaign.

Perhaps its true for 110s..? As told previously, the 110s were pretty successfull in downing enemy planes, whatever the 'conventional wisdom' is. Being a relatively small force however, they suffered a very high ratio of losses compared to SE fighters.

13 Aug 40

Kampfgruppen - 1482 / 1008 (on hand / serviceable)
Stukagruppen - 365 / 286
Schlachtgruppe - 39 / 31
Jagdgruppen - 976 / 853
Zerstrergruppen - 244 /189
Nachtjagdgruppen - 91 / 59
Seefliegerstaffeln - 240 / 125

7 Sept 1940

Kampfgruppen - 1291 / 798
Stukagruppen - 174 /133
Schlachtgruppe - 59 / 44
Jagdgruppen - 831 / 658
Zerstörergruppen - 206 / 112
Fernaufklärungsstaffeln - 191 / 123
Seefliegerstaffeln - 52 / 33

There certainly is no rock steady strength or even an increase in numbers with front line units.

Kampfgruppen went from 1482 / 1008 on Aug 13 to 1291 / 798 on Sept 7. A decrease of 191 / 210.
Jagdgruppen went from 976 / 853 on Aug 13 to 831 / 658 on Sept 7. A decrease of 145 / 195

If production was exceeding the losses, then why did the strength of bombers and fighters decrease? Not even enough spare parts could be supplied to keep a/c flying.



German a/c production numbers can be found here, Aircraft Industry Report Exhibits

Hello Kurfürst
Quote:" In which fantasy land did they stop bombing London after the 15 September..?"

Now we all know how difficult it is to you accept that British did something right. Now what your think the word DAYTIME means?

Because the meaning of the word is well known I only comment the relevant dates on your list.

18 Sept, attack wasn't pressed home
OK, on 27 Sept LW tried to attack London, but during the morning raid, most were forced to turn back but some a/c penetrated to London. So fairly well done by FC.
Noon attack was driven off, this raid consisted mainly fighters.
Afternoon attack, only about 20 out of about 80 bombers reached London area. So FC did fairly well.
28 Sept, in the morning 25 a/c out of 120-150 attacking got through, during afternoon only a few managed to bomb Hastings, NOT London.
On 1 Oct none got over Central London.

So IMHO FC contained pretty well those few big daytime attacks LW tried to make against London after 15 Sept 40.

Juha

Hello Delcyros
what is the source of your 15 Aug info, according to BoB Then And Now Mk V only one Hurri of 605 Sqn was written off because of force-landing after the air combat against the He 111/Bf 110 raid, no info was it damage d by the 110s or by the appr 60 He 111s. There was also another force landing, but that a/c was repairable and plus one came back to Drem slightly dam. Also one 79 Sqn Hurri returned to its base dam, but also it was repairable.

On 110 losses both BoB Then And Now Mk V and Vasco Cornwell in their Zerstörer agree that 7 110s were lost, one of which total loss after crashlanding because of combat dam. 2 returned damaged.

So 7 lost vs one Hurri which was lost after forced landing after combat. So 7:1 or 7:0 depending the reason of Hurri force-landing.

Juha

ADDITION: Forgot to mention, that in all lost and dam 110s there had been 2 man crews, so after all they carried WO/AGs. But I agree that the 15 Aug combat wasn't representative because the problems with the aux fuel tank, and that is mentioned in all books I have read on that combat IIRC.

Milosh said:

13 Aug 40

Kampfgruppen - 1482 / 1008 (on hand / serviceable)
Stukagruppen - 365 / 286
Schlachtgruppe - 39 / 31
Jagdgruppen - 976 / 853
Zerstrergruppen - 244 /189
Nachtjagdgruppen - 91 / 59
Seefliegerstaffeln - 240 / 125

7 Sept 1940

Kampfgruppen - 1291 / 798
Stukagruppen - 174 /133
Schlachtgruppe - 59 / 44
Jagdgruppen - 831 / 658
Zerstörergruppen - 206 / 112
Fernaufklärungsstaffeln - 191 / 123
Seefliegerstaffeln - 52 / 33

There certainly is no rock steady strength or even an increase in numbers with front line units.

Kampfgruppen went from 1482 / 1008 on Aug 13 to 1291 / 798 on Sept 7. A decrease of 191 / 210.
Jagdgruppen went from 976 / 853 on Aug 13 to 831 / 658 on Sept 7. A decrease of 145 / 195

If production was exceeding the losses, then why did the strength of bombers and fighters decrease? Not even enough spare parts could be supplied to keep a/c flying.



German a/c production numbers can be found here, Aircraft Industry Report Exhibits

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When you also consider the RAF figures of servicable aircraft for the same dates:-

Fighter Command Serviceable Aircraft as at 0900 hours, 13 August 1940
Blenheim - 71
Spitfire - 226
Hurricane - 353
Defiant - 26
Gladiator - 2
Total - 678

Fighter Command Serviceable Aircraft as at 0900 hours, 7th September 1940
Blenheim - 44
Spitfire - 223
Hurricane - 398
Defiant - 20
Gladiator - 9
Total - 694

Detail from http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/calendar.html#evntaug

RAF fighter strength had increased slightly whilst the German fighter strength was down by approx 20-25%. With figures like that the writing was on the wall.

Kurfurst, can you tell us where you get your figures to support your posting as there seems to be a significant difference?