Bomber v Bomber

[NR61]

The interesting link posted a while ago about the Wellington v Ju88 got me thinking (hmm sometimes a dangerous thing).

Did Bomber v Bomber combats often take place - I would guess the most common type of meetings between these type of aircraft would be patrol craft like the FW200, JU290 running into Sunderlands, Whitley's, Wellingtons and the odd patrol Lanc.

If these types of aircraft did encounter each other is an engagement a pretty forgone conclusion or would they go there separate ways, if combat did take place would the generally heavier armaments of the FW200 and JU's be an advantage as they had a few 20mm cannon. Sunderlands although having a heavy armament only had 303's (I'm quite prepared to be proved wrong on that).

Thanks.

 

[Erich]

friend the Ju 290's of FAGr 5 faced seaborne Hurricanes. I think we chatted about this in an older thread on the Ju 290.

 

[Glider]

I know that the British used Baltimores against German transports in the Med with some success. Also there was a British B26 pilot who got three kills using it against transports and a Ju290. He died a few months ago and it was in his orbitury in the paper

 

[DaveB.inVa]

One of the best Ive heard involved a guy who died a few years ago named Col. Edwin Loberg. He was involved in a running 45 minute dogfight between a B-17 and a Kawanishi Mavis 4 engined flying boat. The fight is the subject of a Stan Stokes painting and the story can be found here!!

http://www.neam.org/58dogfight.htm

 

[Aggie08]

Dang! What were the "mortal tail guns" of the boat? 20mm or something? come to think of it what was the majority of the armament on that?

 

[NR61]

The Warbird Resource site lists the Mavis as having a 20mm tail gun

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/kawanishih6k.html

 

[R Leonard]

USN and USMC patrol, bombing, patrol-bombing, and photo recon squadrons were credited with 131 multi-engined Japanese aircraft types during the war. USMC night fighter squadrons, operating PVs, were also credited with 5 multi-engined shoot downs, 4 G4M and 1 Lockheed Type 14-38 (yes, the Japanese started the war with about 30 of these, acquired in 1938). PVs were generally in USN patrol-bombing squadron, at first VB and then after 1 October 1944 designated VPB, or USMC night fighter squadrons (VMF(N))

For the entire war:
USN PB2Ys in VP squadrons were credited with 5 G4M and 1 H6K.
A USN VP-23 PBY was credited with 1 H6K.
USN PB4Ys in VB, VD, and VPB squadrons were credited with 11 G3M, 46 G4M, 6 H6K, 10 H8K, 14 Ki-57, 2 J1N, 2 Ki-21, 2 Ki-45, 5 Ki-46, 2 Ki-51, 14 Ki-57/L4M, 6 L2D (Japanese licensed production DC-3), 13 DC-2 (yes, as with the Lockheed 14-38s, the Japanese did have DC-2s, starting the war with about at least 14, purchased in 1938), and 1 each P1Y, Q1W, and Ki-49.
USN PVs from VB-148 were credited with 2 G4M.

Of course, this doesn't begin to address the single engine types credited to the USN and USMC multi-engined patrol, patrol-bombing, and night fighter squadrons. On the other hand, overall, from the entire war, there were a total of 28 PB4Y, 36 PBY, 3 PBM, and 6 PV shot down by enemy aircraft (1 PBY and 1 PV night fighter from these totals were USMC, the remainder were USN). These losses include those lost to single engine types, which, of course were the source of almost all the losses.

I don't have credit to loss by type for the entire war, but I do for the period 1 Sep 1944 to 1 Sep 1945. In this last year of the war there were 64 USN multi-engine vs multi-engine credits. Almost all of them went to the PB4Y patrol and photo recon squadrons, which garnered a total of 63. There were no USN aircraft in these actions. PB4Y credits for this period were 7 G3M, 14 G4M, 3 Ki-45, 3 Ki-46, 3 Ki-51, 2 Ki-21, 1 P1Y, 1 Q1Y, 8 DC-2, 6 L2D, 14 Ki-57/L4M, 5 H8K, and 3 H6K. The sole other multi-engined credit was split between two PB2Ys from VPB-13 for an H6K.


Rich

 

[FLYBOYJ]

In the book "Forty US Fifth Air Force Aircraft" Profile 31 - B-25 shoots down a Japanese Sally over open water of the Bismarck Sea.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i wouldn't have thought it'd happen too often, most would ignore each other.........

 

[krupp]

In the book "Forty US Fifth Air Force Aircraft" Profile 31 - B-25 shoots down a Japanese Sally over open water of the Bismarck Sea.

Indeed, i had read that.
my feel is so high, but can you tell me more detail?please!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The interesting link posted a while ago about the Wellington v Ju88 got me thinking (hmm sometimes a dangerous thing).

Did Bomber v Bomber combats often take place - I would guess the most common type of meetings between these type of aircraft would be patrol craft like the FW200, JU290 running into Sunderlands, Whitley's, Wellingtons and the odd patrol Lanc.

If these types of aircraft did encounter each other is an engagement a pretty forgone conclusion or would they go there separate ways, if combat did take place would the generally heavier armaments of the FW200 and JU's be an advantage as they had a few 20mm cannon. Sunderlands although having a heavy armament only had 303's (I'm quite prepared to be proved wrong on that).

Thanks.

I think the most common encounter would be with Ju-88s because Ju-88s were used as night fighters more than they were as bombers anyhow.

 

[Wildcat]

Correct, Sunderlands and Ju-88's often clashed over the Bay Of Biscay. One famous battle took place in june 1943, when a Sunderland from 461 squadron RAAF was attacked by 8 ju-88's. The aircraft fought for 45 minutes with 3 Ju-88's being shot down and 2 more probables. The Ju-88's eventually decided to brake off the engagement and head for home. The Sunderland eventually made it back to the English Coast, albeit with one engine out, over 500 bullet holes, radio shot out and several crew members, including the pilot, wounded.

 

[lesofprimus]

Great info Leonard....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Wow that battle had to suck and was definatly hard fought. Any more info on the crew?

 

[Wildcat]

Wow that battle had to suck and was definatly hard fought. Any more info on the crew?

I agree, one hell of a fight! As for the crew the pilot, Flt Lt Walker, was injured when a bullet hit the compass causing it to explode and spray him with blazing alcohol. The rear gunner was knocked unconscious when he hit his head from the violent evasive action. When he did come too, he, along with the midships gunner Flt Sgt Fuller, shot down one of the Ju-88's.
The flight engineer was found dead at the gun he was manning. The Navigator took a round in the leg, while the Ist pilot and W/O where also injured. These blokes obviously weren't going without a fight!!

 

[Wildcat]

Found this page which has pics of a Jap Tabby and a Ki-45 being shot down by a USAAF B-24.
http://www.oldcmp.net/lib1.html#tabby

 

[Gnomey]

Good find Wildcat, good pics on that site. Quite a story about that Sunderland, what a fight they went with, the Germans won't of been expecting that.

 

[Jabberwocky]

IIRC that Sunderland has some local modifications, like doubling all the single guns and adding extra MG positions in the galley. It certainly came as a suprise to the crews of the Ju-88s though. The Germans ended up nicknaming the Sunderland the 'Flying Porcupine' because of the amount of defensive armament that the Brits put (or modded) onto it.

 

[KraziKanuK]

To be picky, that Sunderland/Ju88 was not a pure bomber vs bomber engagement since the 88s were the fighter version.

 

[R Leonard]

There were other encounters with "fighter" Ju 88s as well as some others:

Gleaned from various USN operational histories . . .

1 Aug 1943 - A PBY from VP-63 on patrol in the Bay of Biscay was attacked by eight Ju 88s. Surviving crew claimed two of the attackers shot down and one damaged. This was the first aerial combat between U.S. Naval Aviation and the Luftwaffe. German records show only one of the Germans was actually shot down, a Ju 88C-6, Werk No. 360118, from 13/KG40. The PBY was also shot down in this encounter. The pilot and two crewmembers were rescued at sea.

2 Sep 1943 - A PB4Y from VB-103 failed to return. It is believed the aircraft fell victim to Ju-88 fighter-bombers.

4 Sep 1943 - A PB4Y from VB-103 on patrol over the Bay of Biscay was intercepted by six Ju 88s. In the ensuing action, one Ju 88 was shot down (a Ju-88C-6 Werk No. 360382 from 13/KG40). The PB4Y was forced to ditch from fire and other damage. The crew safely exited the wreck and some 36 hours later reached the English coast in their life raft. Two other RAF patrol bombers out of Dunkeswell were also shot down by intercepting Luftwaffe aircraft on this date.

16 Sep 1943 - A VB-103 PB4Y was intercepted while on patrol, but was able to return to base without casualties. There were no known Luftwaffe losses in this action.

18 Sep 1943 - Still another VB-103 PB4Y got in a gunfight with Ju 88s, but the neither side was able to bring down their adversaries. The PB4Y returned to base with no casualties and minimal damage.

8 Nov 1943 - A PB4Y from VB-110 failed to return from a Bay of Biscay patrol. Another patrol plane reported receiving a message from an unidentified aircraft that it was under attack followed by an SOS. Nothing else was heard and this was the only plane that failed to return on that date. Aircraft and crew were listed as missing in action and presumed lost.

9 Nov 1943 - Another VB-110 plane, this piloted by Lieutenant Joseph P. Kennedy, who would later be killed in an Operation Aphrodite flight, was attacked by what was reported as Me 210s. Kennedy hove into a nearby cloudbank and escaped his attackers.

28 Dec 1943 - On the return leg of a routine Bay of Biscay patrol, a VB-110 PB4Y encountered four He 177s. The PB4Y crew reported severely damaging one of these bombers; when last seen it was headed back towards the French coast with a damaged right engine. German records indicate that an He-177A3, Werk No. 5557, from 11/KG40 was unable to return to base and crashed into the sea. The PB4Y safely returned to Dunkeswell.

14 Feb 1944 - A PB4Y from VB-103 on patrol was two Ju 88s. During the encounter the PB4Y crew shot down one of their attackers, a Ju-88C-6 Werk No. 750967, from Stab 1/ZG1, the crew of which was subsequently reported as missing by the Luftwaffe. The PB4Y pilot flew into the cloud cover, but one engine had been knocked out. While attempting to return to Dunkeswell another engine went out and they were forced to ditch. One crewmember went down with the aircraft and another died of injuries. The eight survivors were rescued the next day.

26 Feb 1944 - A PB4Y from VB-105 was attacked by Ju 88s and shot down, with the loss of all hands. A Ju-88C-6, Werk No. 750941, from 3/ZG1 was shot down in this action.

10 Aug 1944 - Another VB-105 PB4Y reportedly encountered a Do 217. In the ensuing exchange of fire the Do 217 was apparently damaged and was observed turning back towards the French coast. No other information available. The PB4Y returned to base.

USN histories are careful to note that the Ju 88s were "fighter/bombers".

Rich