Bournemouth raid 1943.

[pbfoot]

Ideal weather for a low level strike on a coastal town under radar and clouds

 

[Njaco]

And that may be the point. Erich will probably correct me, but these jabo raids on England in early 43 where done at low level across the Channel, sometimes at 10 feet - according to Caldwell. How much good weather do you need at that altitude? Excepting fog of course.

 

[Hop]

According to Tony Wood's RAF/USAAF lists, 1 Squadron RAF (Typhoons) claimed a 190 south of Hastings on an "interception patrol" on the 23rd May.

The weather was also clear enough for an anti shipping strike off Guernsey, which involved at least 2 squadrons of Spits and 1 of Whirlwinds. There may have been more squadrons involved, but the list only gives details of squadrons that made claims or suffered damage.

Wood's Luftwaffe lists only give details of claims, so a lack of entries only means the no claimed kills, not no operations.

Crumpp, can you post the records that show no German operations because of weather on that day?

 

[Crumpp]

"23 May 1943
12 Venturas of 487 Squadron bombed a power-station at Zeebrugge in the first operation for the squadron since its heavy losses on the Amsterdam raid 3 weeks earlier. The formation's bombs fell on to railway yards near the power-station, No aircraft were lost.

That's in Belgium. SKG 10 was in France.

Schnellkampfgeschwader 10

How much good weather do you need at that altitude?

The term for that is "scud-running" and it one of the most dangerous things you can do. Weather definitively affects low level operations.

Scud running - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The GAF had a difficult time in IMC conditions. IMC requires a considerable amount of pilot training and experience to be proficient.

23/24 May 1943
After a 9-day break in major operations, Bomber Command dispatched 826 aircraft to Dortmund - a record number of aircraft in a 'non-1,000' raid so far in the war and the largest raid of the Battle of the Ruhr. The force comprised: 343 Lancasters, 199 Halifaxes, 151 Wellingtons, 120 Stirlings and 13 Mosquitos. 38 aircraft - 18 Halifaxes, 8 Lancasters, 6 Stirlings, 6 Wellingtons - were lost, 4.6 per cent of the force. The Pathfinders marked the target accurately in clear weather conditions and the ensuing attack proceeded according to plan. It was a very successful raid. Many industrial premises were hit, particularly the large Hoesch steelworks, which ceased production. Dortmund was not attacked in strength again by Bomber Command until exactly 1 year after this raid."

This was a night operations. The night was clear and missions where flown.

Before people's panties get bunched up

Are you a two year old and incapable of intelligent discussion? There exist's no other possiblity in your mind other than "someone's panties in a bunch".

How about some dates have been mixed up? Maybe the units have been mixed up? It's not SKG 10? How about if we pool our resources we might learn something?

All I have done is point out a fact. On 23 May 1943 daylight operations for the French based GAF units were restricted. JG26 conducted the only operational flight in the region on the daily evening recon of the English coast. Some administrative flights where conducted that transferred units. These flew in the opposite direction of England toward Northern Germany and clearer skies.


All the best,

Crumpp

 

[mhuxt]

How about some dates have been mixed up? Maybe the units have been mixed up? It's not SKG 10? How about if we pool our resources we might learn something?

No, no, no, and pot meet kettle.

 

[Crumpp]

The weather was also clear enough for an anti shipping strike off Guernsey, which involved at least 2 squadrons of Spits and 1 of Whirlwinds.

The 8th AF flew as well. However the Average Allied pilots had the training and experience to handle IMC conditions.

The 8th AF High Altitude Missions where well above the weather. The weather was clear past Coastal France and into Germany.

As for the two Typhoons. They encountered FW190's at mid-day in the middle of the channel, 20NM South of Hastings. Who they could be, I don't know.

Maybe they were Dora's?

 

[Crumpp]

No, no, no, and pot meet kettle.

Speak English and make sense or you will be ignored. Have you got an axe to grind with me?

 

[mhuxt]

OK.

"There is no mistake about the date, or the unit. You yourself should look beyond your own sources if you wish to learn more."

Meantime, as you compose your apology to Njaco for the personal attack, you could look at Tony Woods' RAF file for 1943.

 

[Njaco]

No apology needed. Just some of my post misconstrued.
The poor panties comment was directed towards Crump's point of it being a night mission....I posted:

Before people's panties get bunched up I am aware that 1.) this is a night raid and 2) its over Germany probably hours after the Bournemouth raid.

But what I don't get is this:

Crumpp... I am just saying that is hard for the Germans to be bombing Bournemouth when their airplanes are not flying.

Crumpp....As for the two Typhoons. They encountered FW190's at mid-day in the middle of the channel, 20NM South of Hastings. Who they could be, I don't know.

I'm confused.

 

[Crumpp]

Meantime, as you compose your apology to Njaco for the personal attack,

What are you talking about? Are you on something?

"There is no mistake about the date, or the unit.

Once again, SKG 10 was stationed in France. The units in France daylight operations were restricted due to weather.


Look man, If you want to say it's otherwise you are free to do so. This shouldn't be an argument. It should be an informed discussion.

I think you have a hidden agenda and an axe to grind.

All the best,

Crumpp

 

[Crumpp]

I'm confused.

The Allied claims show two FW190's claimed 20NM South of Hastings at ~1258hrs-1325hrs on 23 May 1943. The other point is the weather severely curtailed GAF operations during the day for the French based units.

It certainly does not preclude the possibility of other units conducting the mission nor the dates being confused.

I don't understand what is so hard about that to understand. If I was mistaken, I would simply say, "I am mistaken." It just so happens that instrument flight procedures during the war is a keen interest of mine.

I have attached a simple explanation and approach plate. It will be familiar to an Instrument rated pilot of today.

 

[Njaco]

I was only trying to show where you had made the point that nothing was flying GAF although there were two interceptions over the Channel.

I see your point about experience and I would agree. But these jabo units, including SKG 10 had been flying these missions at least since January (when they were jabostaffeln with JG 26 and JG 2.). I would conclude they had some experienced pilots among them.

Weather does affect at all levels but it must have been just enough for them to fly this mission. Attacks were made.

I have no problem saying I'm mistaken. But when things aren't crystal clear I can only guess.

It certainly does not preclude the possibility of other units conducting the mission nor the dates being confused.

No problem. I had to adjust because you started out pointedly saying nothing the GAF had was flying that day. It seems now that 1), other units may have been flying, 2) weather conditions were poor (although I still haven't seen any reports to verify that) so that some units could not fly.

But it looks to me that some German unit attacked Bournemouth. South of Hastings could put a course for Bournemouth, they are on the same coast, not all that far away. I am not holding to SKG only in the respect that the first post mentioned a Lt. Wenger who was with that unit.

It will be familiar to an Instrument rated pilot of today.

Sorry to dash hopes, but I am neither a pilot not instrument rated. Just one of those detested Government workers.

 

[Crumpp]

But these jabo units, including SKG 10 had been flying these missions at least since January

May was the last month they conducted daylight raids. They conducted a large raid on the 30th of May. This was also their last daylight raid.

I would conclude they had some experienced pilots among them.

Weather does affect at all levels but it must have been just enough for them to fly this mission.

Scud-running is very dangerous. Scud-running through a barrage balloon field over territory you are unfamiliar with the man-made obstacles like tower's is suicide. Those experienced German pilots would have quickly recognized this fact.

It does not make sense at this point. If you were a pilot I think this would be much clearer.

I am not saying that to push you away from the discussion or invalidate your views. You don't have to be a pilot to discuss WWII History. I think some practical experience would lend some insight though.

Attacks were made.

Do you think this is in dispute?

The question is WHEN and by WHO.

All the best,

Crumpp

 

[Njaco]

We seem to be editing too much.

I will say here and now I was mistaken if your contention is that the unit or units involved are unknown and on what date. My understanding since the beginning was that you believed no aircraft had made an attack. My bad.

I am no expert. I was just trying to help with a few points on which unit it could have been. I bow to much superior knowledge around here and don't sit myself on a pedastal.

Do you have any theories on what unit it would have been? I'll check my references for bases, aircraft and such. Might give a clue.

 

[Crumpp]

I think either the date is confused with the raid most likely taking place on 30 May 1943 if it was SKG 10.

Another real possibility for the 26th of May is SG101 out of Rhiems. The weather was clearer towards the German border and the Typhoon encounter is almost a direct line between Rheims and Bournemouth.

 

[Hop]

Crumpp, I'll ask again what evidence you have that the weather was too bad for the Germans to fly.

The evidence for the raid on that day:

Chris Goss. His account of the double raid on Bournemouth and Hastings.

The RAF claims on Tony Woods site. The claim for a 190 south of Hastings matches Goss' account of two 190s lost from the Hastings raid, 1 to flak, 1 to fighters.

There's an account at the BBC as part of their oral history programme:
BBC - WW2 People's War - Recalling Fallen Comrades [M.Shnider]

He mentions 2 Canadians killed in the bombing, David Chalmers and William Abbott. If you go to the Commonwealth war graves site you can search for both men.

David Chalmers - killed 23 rd May 1943, buried Bournemouth.
CWGC :: Casualty Details

William Abbott - killed 23rd May 1943, buried Bournemouth.
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Searching for those two names brought up the following the following book on Google: The Maw: Searching for the Hudson

It says 21 Canadians were killed, but only nine of them are on the page previewed by Google. 2 of the nine were Chalmers and Abbott who I've already listed, the others entries at the Commonwealth War Graves site:

George Assaf CWGC :: Casualty Details

Robert Courtney
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Earle Gilbert
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Alexander Matheson
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Francis Matier
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Raymond Pelrine
CWGC :: Casualty Details

Julian Soos
CWGC :: Casualty Details

All died on 23rd May, all are buried in Bournemouth.

So Crumpp, what documents tell you that there were no German operations? There is ample documentary evidence that the date of 23 May 1943 is correct, so far you have provided only a document showing the Jagdwaffe made no claims that day.

 

[Crumpp]

Crumpp, I'll ask again what evidence you have that the weather was too bad for the Germans to fly.

Jafu 2 orders.

So Crumpp, what documents tell you that there were no German operations?

Why don't read the thread, Hop. Not reading it combined with sensationalism will get you ignored.

 

[mhuxt]

Ideal weather for a low level strike on a coastal town under radar and clouds

Actually, the weather was sunny over Hastings and Bournemouth, as per the eyewitness accounts.

 

[Crumpp]

as per the eyewitness accounts.

Here is some eyewitness accounts:


O'Hare Airport UFO Eyewitness Report

Bigfoot Eyewitness Sketches

NOVA Online | The Beast of Loch Ness | Eyewitness Accounts

Yale Law School | Eyewitness Testimony Doesn't Make It True--A Commentary by Steven B. Duke

 

[mhuxt]

So, to sum up thus far, you believe neither the people who witnessed the attack take place in good weather, nor the allied authorities who reported casuaulties on the 23rd.