Buchon to 109 conversion

[yulzari]

So how many engine types have been fitted to the Hispano? Original DB 605, Hispano 12Z, Merlin 500 and now Allison.

On the 109 also Kestrel, Jumo 210, Jumo 211, DB 600, DB 601, BMW801.

Is that the lot?

 

[GregP]

I am not aware of any other V-12's but the Germans also built a Bf 109 variant with a radial engine.

 

[gumbyk]

Hu gumbyk,

You may be a bit out of date here. I KNOW the Missubishi Mu-2 has a type certificate that was bilateralled from the JCAB since I just finished working on updating a panel in one and SAW the type certificate.

I was basing my comments on the Kawasaki BK-117, as well as licence built MD-500's, and other helicopters built by Kawasaki. They are not able to be certified in USA. Can you certify a Japanese-built MU2 in the US?
I worked for the local Kawasaki agent, and we had to hold two copies of each manual (one with the Eurocopter designation, European built aircraft, and one with Kawasaki designation for Japanese built aircraft), despite there being almost no difference in either the manual or helicopter.
I did leave in 2010, so things may have changed, but the agreement you posted a link to didn't have anything regarding Type certificates.

 

[GregP]

If you read the document I left a link for above, you CAN certify any Japanese aircaft that has an approval from the JCAB (Japanese Civil Aeronautics Board). I have seen about 4 - 5 MU-2's built in Japan fly through Chino that I got to look into, but I never looked at their type certificates ... yet they were flying here in the USA with data plates that said Mitsubishi, not Mitsubishi-Mooney.

I was never really interested in type certificates of FLYING airplanes (since they were flying ...), just the ones we were trying to return to flight after restoration.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Greg, it would be the Airworthiness Certificate you're looking at. The type certificate is put out by the FAA or the certifying country. it's basically the certified aircraft's birth certificate.

Special airworthiness certificates are pink in the US

 

[GregP]

Thanks Joe, I've seen a number of them, but I never looked for one for a Mitsubishi Zero before ... and I don't have a lot of time for it just now. Am teching a class on a particular subject for the first time and have to stay ahead of the class, grade papers, etc. It's MUCH easier the second time and onward. Might also take over another class and hope to do so, but it will take time, too.

But I am curious as to the categories of our flying birds at the museum, and will pursue it. The issue will be access to the records since this a very busy season for Steve Hinton / Kevin Eldridge / all the people at Fighter Rebuilders. We hardly ever SEE Steveo Hinton Jr. as he is a very busy guy.

But, when I see them, I'll ask if they have the time to talk a bit. They usually have a few minutes on occasion if volunteers have questions.

 

[gumbyk]

Greg,
The Flying wing has an experimental-exhibition Airworthiness Certificate: FAA registry info

That was the only registration I could remember to look up. But it may save you having to bother the guys if they're too busy.

 

[GregP]

Yeah, all I have to do is get the N-numbers and then go. That will make it a LOT easier.

The N9M-B Flying Wing doesn't get flown unless it is for public demonstration anyway. It won't get flown just now at all since we lost about 15 - 20 pounds of oil pressure in one engine and are currently having the spare crankcase overhauled. When you lose a bit of oil pressure during normal operation, it is usually the main bearing, or they are at least the first suspected culprits.

Unfortunately for us, the Flying Wing uses some rather unique Franklin engines that have the intake and exhaust valves on opposite sides from convention Franklins, and so parts from most other Franklins will not fit. It makes for interesting engine maintenance ... and interesting overhauls when required.

They only made 13 of these engines for the N9M-B wings and we have two complete engines, one extra crankcase, some new cylinders we had made when we had no other option, and a few odd other parts. So, keeping it running is interesting.

I wish all the engines were as reliable as the engine in our Mitsubishi A6M5 Model 52 Zero! The original engine and prop are the definition of reliability!

 

[gumbyk]

Hit the Mother-lode!
Here's the list of aircraft registered to the same owners as N9MB
FAA Registry - Aircraft - Name Inquiry

 

[gumbyk]

Yeah, all I have to do is get the N-numbers and then go. That will make it a LOT easier.

The N9M-B Flying Wing doesn't get flown unless it is for public demonstration anyway. It won't get flown just now at all since we lost about 15 - 20 pounds of oil pressure in one engine and are currently having the spare crankcase overhauled. When you lose a bit of oil pressure during normal operation, it is usually the main bearing, or they are at least the first suspected culprits.

Unfortunately for us, the Flying Wing uses some rather unique Franklin engines that have the intake and exhaust valves on opposite sides from convention Franklins, and so parts from most other Franklins will not fit. It makes for interesting engine maintenance ... and interesting overhauls when required.

They only made 13 of these engines for the N9M-B wings and we have two complete engines, one extra crankcase, some new cylinders we had made when we had no other option, and a few odd other parts. So, keeping it running is interesting.

I wish all the engines were as reliable as the engine in our Mitsubishi A6M5 Model 52 Zero! The original engine and prop are the definition of reliability!

So I guess there'll come the time when they are going to have to make some tough choices; either ground it, or spend some serious money re-engining it (either with similar engines, or remanufactured parts)

 

[GregP]

First, thanks for this! I appreciate it. And I am not at all surprised the Zero is experimental exhibition. When most of our planes go somewhere, it is for an airshow or scheduled public appearance, and that is in compliance with the rules.

Many of our A/C are owned by private individuals, and I'll have to look them up. Note our P-51A is experimental exhibition but the F-51D is Limited. I believe Steve Hinton's P-51D, Wee Willy, is also Limited. That puts diameter restrictions on the prop, and that is a sore subject with many P-51 owners at present.

We had the choice you mention above a few years back and elected to have 25 new cylinders made by a machine shop in Florida, to original specification. So hopefully it will run fine for awhile yet ... but ... yes; sooner or later they will have to make that choice. The engines in it are about 300 - 400 HP each (rated at 450 or so, but doubtful if they MAKE that). When the time comes, it NEEDS that HP or maybe slightly more.

 

[gumbyk]

First, thanks for this! I appreciate it. And I am not at all surprised the Zero is experimental exhibition. When most of our planes go somewhere, it is for an airshow or scheduled public appearance, and that is in compliance with the rules.

Many of our A/C are owned by private individuals, and I'll have to look them up. Note our P-51A is experimental exhibition but the F-51D is Limited. I believe Steve Hinton's P-51D, Wee Willy, is also Limited. That puts diameter restrictions on the prop, and that is a sore subject with many P-51 owners at present.

We had the choice you mention above a few years back and elected to have 25 new cylinders made by a machine shop in Florida, to original specification. So hopefully it will run fine for awhile yet ... but ... yes; sooner or later they will have to make that choice. The engines in it are about 300 - 400 HP each (rated at 450 or so, but doubtful if they MAKE that). When the time comes, it NEEDS that HP or maybe slightly more.

No worries, years of trolling through the darkest recesses of the internet looking for obscure information makes this pretty easy stuff.

3D scanning and milling make manufacturing things like crankcases pretty easy nowadays - check out the TVAL links I posted earlier. It isn't a full DB6 V12, but a crankcase and bearings are probably one of the easier parts to manufacture.
Do they do any oil analysis? It will generally point to the failing part pretty quickly.

 

[GregP]

You know, these are museum aircraft and I am not "in" on the maintenance schedules, but I'd be very surprised if they don't do oil analysis. We operate a lot of older, high-displacement and high-power engines and oil analysis SHOULD be very important to the museum.

Most of the pilots I know who fly even Van's RV's do oil analysis ... why not a museum with very many unique warplanes?

 

[bobbysocks]

anyone can have an oil analysis done....iirc it is manditory for ac above a certain rating ( above light sport ? ). i will probably send mine in every year or so...depending on how many hours i put on the engine. it only has 150 since built. knowing what metals are in the oil will give me a good idea what is going on in the engine that i cannot see.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

anyone can have an oil analysis done....iirc it is manditory for ac above a certain rating ( above light sport ? ). i will probably send mine in every year or so...depending on how many hours i put on the engine. it only has 150 since built. knowing what metals are in the oil will give me a good idea what is going on in the engine that i cannot see.

There are certain companies that do oil analysis but there is no FAR requirement to it it unless it's directed in the maintenance manual or part of your maintenance program if you're running an expertmental

 

[bobbysocks]

does lycoming or continental require or suggest it after X hours or during the annual on the powerplant? i never was responsible for ac maintenance ( and what i have is mostly exempt ) but remember my dad having it tested on his piper arrow years back.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

does lycoming or continental require or suggest it after X hours or during the annual on the powerplant? i never was responsible for ac maintenance ( and what i have is mostly exempt ) but remember my dad having it tested on his piper arrow years back.

Nope - they "suggest" oil analysis but it is not manditory

 

[gumbyk]

Nope - they "suggest" oil analysis but it is not manditory

And they provide no support in working out the analysis results.

I have one customer who does it as a routine part of their maintenance, but they're operating with a greatly extended TBO (double the manufacturer's recommendation). When we had a sample come back with slightly elevated metal returns, and asked about what sort of limit should be on each metal, and possible sources of the metal found, they wouldn't give anything specific enough to be useful.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

And they provide no support in working out the analysis results.

I have one customer who does it as a routine part of their maintenance, but they're operating with a greatly extended TBO (double the manufacturer's recommendation). When we had a sample come back with slightly elevated metal returns, and asked about what sort of limit should be on each metal, and possible sources of the metal found, they wouldn't give anything specific enough to be useful.

Liability...

When I see abnormal oil samples, I look more for bearing material (copper/ chrome). After the engine is base lined, when you start seeing large amounts metal, you'll start seeing some indication (compression drop, low oil pressure, not making max power)that will tell you "it's time!"

 

[GregP]

I have a friend who flies a P-51D. Every time they change the oil, they cut the top off the filer and pour the oil in the filter through cheesecloth.

Unfortunately, one time they found metal in it. Further unfortunately it was brass-color. The only thing inside a Merlin that is brass-color is the main bearings ... happened after 25 hours! The overhauler, Mike Nixon of Vintage V-12's, allowed that should NOT have hapopened and fixed it free of charge. My friend now has over 800 hours on that Merlin and it still runs and checks clean every oil change.

They still don't know why it happend, but they found out 2 things:

1) If metal is in the oil, you can SEE it against cheesecloth.
2) Mike Nixon stands by his work.

My friend was NOT happy about finding the metal, but was delighted to find out Mike stands by his work, and is a Vintage V-12's customer at this time. Sometimes even a rain cloud has a Silver lining ... if it happens to YOU, you hope it is one of those times.

I saw Joe Yancey take care of things that were inside the first 25 hours and we were pretty sure it wasn't our fault, but he did it anyway and went with the engine to supervise the install and initial runs. When Joe left, the owner had 4 - 5 hour flying time on the plane (P-40) and was satisfied that the engine was running fine. That was 4 years agao and the owner is still happy with his Allison. We were pretty sure the owner didn't connect things properly in the initial installation since we ran it on the test stand for 8 hours with NOTHING in the oil, but sometimes word of mouth is worth the pain and expense to make things right. Inside the first 25 hours or so is the right time to work with a new owner.

Mike Nixon knows that, too.

We had one customer take apart the oil pump and get it wrong going back together. He owns a replica Spitfire with an Allison in it. Joe just sent him another one as exchange and told him if he ever did that again, it likely wasn't going to be free! The owner bought us a steak dinner and said thanks next time he flew past. Joe told him ... OK ... you have ONE MORE shot at this mistake for low or no cost, but it'll at LEAST take another steak dinner if you do. The guy is STILL happy with his Allison ... and we DID get that next steak dinner, too, without a repair to propmt it. He stops in whenever he is in Southern California, even if just to say "Hi."