Buchon to 109 conversion

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by gumbyk, Mar 5, 2015.

  1. gumbyk

    gumbyk Well-Known Member

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  2. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting that. The Bouchon just didn't look right.

    Geo
     
  3. imalko

    imalko Well-Known Member

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    Cool stuff. Thanks for sharing.
     
  4. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that apparently an upright Alison will fit in the cowl space of an inverted DB605.
     
  5. pbehn

    pbehn Well-Known Member

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    Well the Merlin did in the Bouchon and the Merlin also fitted where an Allison did in a small production model of the Mustang used by the Americans (the P 51) and also into the P40 Kittyhawk. The Merlin was also fitted to a Bf109 by the Germans so it seems the three were with some work interchangeable
     
  6. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    The Allison is narrown and the exhaust stacks can be routed in several ways to look like an inverted Vee. Since the fighter will spend the bulk of it's time under 14,500 feet anyway, the Allison is a good choice. Plenty of power, plenty of parts, and very reliable if built correctly.

    The DB would be a wounderful choice but engines and parts are quite scarce. Perhaps an opportunity for DB-600 series aftermarket parts? ... might depend entirely on the projected market for such parts.
     
  7. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    That was not my point. The Merlin does NOT fit the cowls used for the DB605. The Merlin's rocker covers required a higher, squared off cowl but as expained by Greg and as seen in the pictures the Alison's cylinder banks are narrower and fall within the profile of the firewall. That's why the Buchon has such an ugly nose.
     
  8. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Some feel the Bf 109 design is a bit ugly. Personally, when I think of a WWII fighter, I think of a Bf 109, a Spitfire, or a Zero ... in no particular order. To me, they are the best looking of the bunch. The Bf 109 is very business-like, with an appearance that says, "Beware!"

    But a Buchon has a face that would make a train want to take a dirt road on a rainy night ... at least by comparison.

    The best-looking of the Bf 109 series, at least to me, was the Bf 109F. Now THERE is a fighter.

    Bf.109.F.07a.jpg
     
  9. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    Look forward to further work, and I agree with Greg too!
     
  10. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    awesome! i look forward to seeing it someday. they do nice work.....and did a bang up job on bill overstreets berlin express.
     
  11. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Seeing it that a V-1710 can be installed without much of wrecking the appearance, I'd really love to see the new-build Fiat G.55 with that reasonably available engine. Talk about a both rare and gorgeous aircraft ... :)
     
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  12. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Be nice to see more of the Buchons 'back-dated' to early 'G' or 'F' configuration, at least outwardly. I'm wondering if that will be done to those which have been bought by a European buyer.
    Although they look 'wrong' as '109's, Mahaddie and the film company did a good job in at least trying to make them look a little like '109E's, and much better than the Me108's which had been used in some movies up until the BoB movie. But I'd rather see a 'Buchon' flying as a Messerschmitt, than not at all.
     
  13. gumbyk

    gumbyk Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I'm of two minds about this. Yes, you are creating an authentic-looking 109, but in the process, you are 'destroying' an authentic warbird and negating its service.
     
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  14. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I tend to agree there, which was one of the reasons for my comment regarding seeing them as 'Buchons' rather than not at all. It's a difficult decision to make, with the originals being intended for fitting with DB engines, having been supplied as 'CKD' kits, and then the licence-built examples, which these are, utilising available engines in the form of Merlins.
    Maybe it's because of following the filming of the BoB movie from the day production started , and getting used to seeing them 'cosmetically converted' to more closely resemble a '109, but I actually quite like the 'Buchon' in Luftwaffe colours as they are.
    That said, if converted to a '109, I'd much rather see it done using DB engines, but fully appreciate the problems that entails, so if they at least look like a '109, and can perform (at air show standard) in a similar fashion, then fine - I'm in no position to object, not having a spare few million with which to fund 'new build' DB engines !!
     
  15. pbehn

    pbehn Well-Known Member

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    While I think the Bouchon looks a bit strange, is it possible that the designers of the Bouchon were looking for an aircraft that looked as little like a Bf109 as possible just as the people putting in an Allison are trying to make it look like a Bf109, it was crafted in the immediate post war years after all.
     
  16. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

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    how did the buchons with the merlins perform compared to a DB 109? looks like a draggier airframe ( firewall forward )...
     
  17. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    #17 GregP, Mar 8, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
    Ho Tomo,

    I love the Fiats, and also think the Reggainnes and Macchi's should be back in the air, too. I believe tehre is a market for a DB-600 series engine for warbirds that could be used in lieu of the DB 600 vut which lends itself to the lines. The problen would be getting it acctepted by the aviation requlatory bodies of the world. Not sure if the market would support the cost of getting it into service, but I think probably so.

    It should be a modern inverted V-12 with electronic ignition and fuel injection. I think anything from the 1,1010 HP to 1,500 HP range would fly any of the airframes nicely.
     
  18. gumbyk

    gumbyk Well-Known Member

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    The regulatory acceptance isn't much of a problem, as these aircraft are all flown under an 'experimental' (or whatever terminology the local authority uses) Airworthiness certificate, which reduces certification costs. It wouldn't be any different to manufacturing WW1 engines, which is happening at a couple of places here in NZ.
     
  19. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    Not quite so.

    Very many are flown under the "limited" category and must conform to many original specifications.

    At the Planes of Fame, we have three P-51s: 1 P-51A and two P-51Ds. All are 'Limited" category aircraft. Ditto a LOT of others. The "Experimatals" are all modified or cannot meet limited. If they can't, costs go up ... sometimes by a lot.

    The regulatory acceptance is a VERY MAJOR expense or we'd have a LOT more engine choices.

    Getting the Gufstream G-650 certified cost Parker-Hannifin an "extra" $96M after the crash in Roswell, New Mexico that had NOTHING to do with our fly-by-wire control system ... it was pilot error (wrong flap setting for the takeoff being attempted).

    That ain't chump change, my friend, but it cost a LOT of people their jobs, including mine.

    If only it were so easy to get alternative power out there ... but it isn't, by any stretch of the imagination. If anyone thinks it is, they haven't tried it.
     
  20. net_sailor

    net_sailor Active Member

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    I think this conversion is a sort of barbarianism. It would be neither Buchon, neither Bf 109G, neither something between. Buchons deserves for his place in history, as the last produced '109s' derivation and the last combat used (against Moroccan guerillas on 1960's). For these reasons I would like to see them in original Spain camouflage, than fictional German markings. However some peoples still thinks about them as a 'bastards' among the original German '109s' instead final stage of development!
     
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