Captured P-51 in combat?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Njaco, Mar 6, 2007.

  1. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    I recently found this sentence in a book ... "The Checkertale Clan:The 325 FG in North Africa and Italy" by E.R. McDowell and William Hess, pg 56;

    "An unusual encounter took place on 24 August 1944 when the Group ran into a captured P-51 painted black over-all with yellow stripes around the wings. It was flying in a mixed gaggle of about 40 German aircraft...."

    I've never heard this before except for stories of captured B-17s and 24s directing fighters onto bombers. And most captured stock was with KG 200, correct? Never heard of something like this being used to fight with a regular Gruppe or such!

    Interesting unless this has already been discussed and I haven't found the thread yet.

    Thanx
     
  2. comiso90

    comiso90 Active Member

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    interesting... How well would the P-51 run on German fuel?
     
  3. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Another point I didn't think about! :idea:
     
  4. Russell Means

    Russell Means Banned

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    LW flew captured allied fighter aircraft in combat. RCAF Spitfire pilot William Neal Chappel was shot down by a German Spitfire over Belgium in late 1944. This was witnessed by the rest of 403. He can confirm all the details. He lives in S Cal, I have his phone #.
     
  5. JG57_Rall

    JG57_Rall Member

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    The captured allied aircraft in WWII were used by KG200 in a number of roles.
    Here is a good link to color profiles of some KG200 aircraft.

    Caged Eagles: Captured Allied Aircraft Markings

    This URL has a lot of good info on KG200 aircraft and procedures also.

    KG200 Site - The Real KG200 - A Brief History

    JG57 the Virtual CFS squad has quite a few KG200 flight models with a short history of the Wolf Hound captured B-17 bomber at this URL

    http://bjrvt.supremeserver22.com/JG57KG200.html


    Hope these URLs are usefull.

    Rall
     
  6. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    A good book you can also read is:

    KG 200 The Luftwaffes Most Secret Unit by Geoffrey J. Thomas and Barry Ketley.

    very informative and covers the captured aircraft with tail numbers and pictures.
     
  7. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Thanks for the info. But did KG 200 ever fly daylight missions with other gruppen? This piece seems to indicate that this was a single captured P-51 flying with Fw 190s and Bf 109s. Unless he was mistaken and it was a Bf 109 in dark camo. I've got some profiles of Messer. from I believe JG 300 that are very dark and almost absent any identifiers.

    It was just a very unusual sentence and got me wondering.

    And KG 200 was for special ops, I believe. unless....

    Were JGs used for cover on some KG 200 missions?

    Questions, questions.....

    Thanx
     
  8. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    the story is crock as captured machines were flight tested and sent to units in this case a captured Mustang to Luftwaffe JG's as evaluation craft only flown by piolts in the test unit Zirkus Rosarius. KG 200 did not have these, they used captured 4 engine jobs. KG = Kampfgeschwader = bomber wing

    yes KG 200 flew special ops and I have a friend still living that flew 109's in the unit, name withheld at the time being on his request
     
  9. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
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  10. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Can you elaborate on that Erich. Because according to the book KG 200 had the following allied fighters with pictures of them as well:

    Spitfire PR.XI SN: MB945 Luftwaffe code: T9+BB
    Mosquito Luftwaffe code: T9-XB
    P-38G Luftwaffe code: T9+XB
    P-51B Luftwaffe code: T9+CK
    Spitfire IX Luftwaffe code: T9+EK
    P-47D-2-RA SN: 42-22490 Luftwaffe code: T9+FK
    Typhoon Luftwaffe code: T9+GK
    P-51C Luftwaffe code: T9+HK
    Spitfire IX Luftwaffe code: T9+KK
    P-47D-11-RE SN: 42-75971 Luftwaffe code: T9+LK
    F-5E Lightning SN: 44-23725 Luftwaffe code: T9+MK
    P-47D Luftwaffe code: T9+PK
    P-51D Luftwaffe code: T9+PK
    Typhoon SN: 0549(?)
    Typhoon SN: 0956(?)
     
  11. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    I just checked those sites JG 57 listed and the Captured Eagles has a few single engine with a description. The P-51B was used by Hungarian fighters for training against Fw 190 but who knows.
     
  12. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    my understanding is that the T9 P-51's were not part of KG 200 at all. This was a special ops group not a testing evaluation group. Gag looks like I have to pull out resources again .........
     
  13. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    From the understanding that I got from the book they were used on special operations missions by KG200. It has pictures of them and history of the aircraft. Who flew them and if they were lost and where. Also where they were recovered.

    Again I am not saying this info is 100 percent correct but it is the understanding that I have.
     
  14. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Sorry Erich, I guess I'll keep questions to something like ... whats the best three wing plane :p
     
  15. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Dont let him kid you. Erich loves going through his old material and archives.
     
  16. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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  17. Aggie08

    Aggie08 Active Member

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    It seems like the most likely explanation is that is was a -109, being as the two looked similar and when one faces a gaggle of 40 German warplanes I imagine one does not take the time to examine any one plane for too long.
     
  18. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Thats what I was thinking. I've got some profiles of very dark Bf 109s from JG 300 which I believe (Erich might correct me on this) were in the Med area of Italy and Rum, etc. just a guess.
     
  19. Single-Handed-Sailor

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    I'd say that the report of a black P-51 as published in that "Checkertail Clan" book was probably a case of misidentification. That kind of wrong ID was pretty common from what I gather.

    Erich is right when he says that the captured fighters were operated by Zirkus Rosarius. They were used for evaluation and mock combat against operational German fighters. I think the actual designation of the "Zirkus" was 2.Staffel Versuchsverband Oberkommando der Luftwaffe, or something like that. (Sorry if I have that wrong. My high-school German is way beyond rusty these days!)

    It's my understanding that KG 200 engaged in mostly clandestine operations and long-range recce work, yes? Am I also correct in saying that they used Mistels late in the war, or no?
     
  20. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    I agree, Sailor....misident.

    I do believe KG 200 was flying Mistels against Oder and Ludendorf bridges late war.

    I think they also used a Ar 234 for Operation Zeppelin ... a drop of agents in Moscow. I may be wrong but that seems alittle difficult. Maybe I'm forgetting the a/c type. All my research on another computer. Keeps most of the net bugs out.
     
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