Carriers!!

[R Leonard]

I did think R (and Im sure you will be able to verifie or deny it) that the USS Ranger was the first US purpose built carrier of any size, as I believe all the ones previous to this where based on other vessels or hulls. Also have you any info on UK carrier categories as all mine say that HMS Hermes 10,750 tons was the first and smallest Fleet carrier operated by the RN where I believe in the US it has to be over 20,000 tons and carry over a set number of aircraft before it is rated as a fleet carrier. This appears to be quite a grey area especially prior too 1930.

Yes, Ranger was the first designed for purpose US aircraft carrier, fleet or otherwise. Langley was converted from the collier USS Jupiter. Lexington and Saratoga were converted from battle cruisers as a result of the naval limitation treaties. Yorktown, Wasp and Essex class were designed for purpose. The Independence class light carriers were converted from light cruisers. Saipan class light carriers were designed for purpose.

There is no hard and fast tonnage rule that divides fleet carriers from light carriers. That being said, we can look at how the USN made its distinctions in the WW2 era.

Lexington Class (2) – fleet carrier, 33000 tons, 34 knots speed, 80-120 aircraft
Ranger Class (1) – fleet carrier, 14500 tons, 29.5 knots speed, 80 aircraft
Yorktown Class (3) – fleet carrier, 19900-20000 tons, 34 knots speed, 80-100 aircraft
Wasp Class (1) – fleet carrier, 14700 tons, 29.5 knots speed, 80 aircraft
Essex Class (24) – fleet carrier, 27100 tons (average), 32.7 knots speed, 110 aircraft
Independence Class (9) – light carrier, 11000 tons, 31.6 knots speed, 45 aircraft
Midway Class (3) – fleet carrier, 45000 tons, 33 knots speed, 137 aircraft
Saipan Class (2) – light carrier, 14500 tons, 32.5 knots speed, 50 aircraft

The distinction appears to be based more on aircraft complement than tonnage. Note that displacement for the Saipan class is the same as for Ranger, yet they carried 30 less airplanes, thus falling into the CVL classification. Confirming the aircraft complement theory of distinction, note the Altamaha class, Sangamon class and Commencement Bay class CVEs. These classes of escort carriers all displaced more than the Independence class CVLs, but carried only 18, 35, and 35 aircraft, respectively. The rated speed of the CVLs when compared to CVs and CVEs also serves to distinguish the CVLs from the CVEs in that the CVLs could keep pace with the CVs and the CVEs could not. The deciding factors, then, are an ability to keep station with the CVs and the size of the aircraft complement.

Early Japanese carriers were conversions, Hosho from a hull that started as a tanker; Akagi, from a battle cruiser; and Kaga from a battleship. Shoho class carriers were converted from submarine tenders as was Ryuho. Hiyo class was converted from liners that were designed with the conversion in mind. Chitose class were seaplane tender conversions. And, of course, Shinano was converted from the Yamato class battleship. Hosho remains an oddity. Considered to be a fleet carrier when built, its primary purpose was as an experimental platform. It remained, despite small tonnage and aircraft complement on the Japanese books as a fleet carrier even though, in practice it was smaller than most escort carriers and carried even less aircraft. Had Hosho been built in 1943 it would have been considered a CVE.

Hosho Class (1) – fleet carrier, 7470 tons, 25 knots speed, 21 aircraft
Akagi Class (1) – fleet carrier, 36500 tons, 31.5 knots speed, 90 aircraft
Kaga Class (1) – fleet carrier, 38200 tons, 28.3 knots speed, 90 aircraft
Ryujo Class (1) – light carrier, 10600 tons, 29 knots speed, 48 aircraft
Soryu Class (1) – fleet carrier, 15900 tons, 34.5 knots speed, 73 aircraft
Hiryu Class (1) – fleet carrier, 17300 tons, 34.3 knots speed, 73 aircraft
Shokaku Class (2) – fleet carrier, 25675 tons, 34.2 knots speed, 84 aircraft
Shoho Class (2) – light carrier, 11262 tons, 28 knots speed, 30 aircraft
Hiyo Class (2) – fleet carrier, 24140 tons, 25.5 knots speed, 53 aircraft
Ryuho Class (1) – light carrier, 13360 tons, 26.5 knots speed, 31 aircraft
Chitose Class (2) – light carrier, 11190 tons, 29 knots speed, 30 aircraft
Taiho Class (1) – fleet carrier, 29300 tons, 33.3 knots speed, 53 aircraft
Shinano Class (1) – aircraft transport, 64800 tons, 27 knots speed, 47 aircraft
Unryu Class (3) – fleet carrier, 17150 to 17460 tons, 32 knots speed, 65 aircraft

Japanese CVEs of the Chuyo class had a displacement of 17830 tons, a speed of 21 knots and an aircraft complement of 27. Kaiyo class was 13000 tons, 23.75 knots, and 24 aircraft. Shinyo class was 17500 tons, 22 knots, and 31 aircraft. The primary distinction, then, for the Japanese, if you ignore Hosho, appears to be, as with the USN, speed first, then aircraft complement.

With all that in mind, we can take on the Royal Navy's distinctions between CVs, CVLs, and CVEs. Furious began life as a battle cruiser, first with the flight deck forward, then extended aft and finally converted to flush decl. Vindictive was built on light cruiser Canvandish with a forward flightdeck, not really an aircraft carrier. Argus was converted from an Italian liner. Argus was rated as CV, and for the period in which it was built, was indeed so. By later standards of speed and complement she was closer to a CVE then anything else. Eagle started as a dreadnought battleship. Another early carrier rated CV, 20 years later, on speed and aircraft complement, she would probably be rated a large CVE. Hermes, since the Japanese Hosho started as a tanker, is generally regarded as the first designed and built for purpose aircraft carrier. Courageous class carriers were converted from battle cruisers. All CVs and CVLs that followed were also designed and built as carriers.

Furious Class (1) – Not Typed, 22450 tons, 32.5 knots speed, 33 aircraft
Vindictive Class (1) – Not Typed, 9750 tons, 29 knots speed, 6 aircraft
Argus Class (1) – fleet carrier, 15775 tons, 20.75 knots speed, 20 aircraft
Eagle (I) Class (1) – fleet carrier, 22600 tons, 24 knots speed, 21 aircraft
Hermes Class (1) – fleet carrier, 10850 tons, 25 knots speed, 25 aircraft
Courageous Class (2) – fleet carrier, 22500 tons, 32 knots speed, 48 aircraft
Ark Royal Class (1) – fleet carrier, 22000 tons, 31.5 knots speed, 72 aircraft
Illustrious Class (4) – fleet carrier, 23000 tons, 31 knots speed, 36 aircraft
Implacable Class (2) – fleet carrier, 23000 tons, 32 knots speed, 72 aircraft
Eagle (II) Class (2) – fleet carrier, 36800 tons, 31.5 knots speed, 100 aircraft
Unicorn Class (1) – light carrier, 14750 tons, 24 knots speed, 35 aircraft
Colossus Class (10) – light carrier, 13190 to 13350 tons, 25 knots speed, 48 aircraft

A quick look at RN CVEs leads us to:
Audacity, a conversion from merchant vessel, 5537 tons, 15 knots, 6 aircraft.
Pretoria Castle, merchant conversion, displaced 17392 tons, speed 17 knots, and 15 aircraft.
Activity, merchant conversion, displaced 11800 tons, speed 18 knots, and 15 aircraft.
Campamia, merchant conversion, displaced 12450 tons, speed 17 knots, and 15 aircraft.
Vindex, merchant conversion, displaced 13455 tons, speed 17 knots, and 15 aircraft.
Nairana, merchant conversion, displaced 14500 tons, speed 17 knots, and 15 aircraft.
and then the Tracker class (26), merchant hulls, 11420 tons, speed 17 knots, 24 aircraft.

It would appear that for the RN the distinction, generally based on speed, CVL speeds vary from 24 to 25 knots. The CVEs are all at 17 and lower knots except for HMS Activity at 18 knots. Separation from CVs is a little more difficult due to the specifications of some of the early carriers. And then there's the fact that none of the CVLs of the Unicorn and Colossus, were completed during the war. Looking at the data, it would appear that speed was the determining factor. If your carrier had a top speed over 20 knots you were either a CV or a CVL without regard to aircraft complement. Tonnage wise, Unicorn and Collossus classes displace somewhat less than the contemporary CVs. If I had to make the call, I'd say the RN looked at speed. Less than 20 knots and it is a CVE. More than 20 knots, but less than 15000 ton displacement then, if you do not count pre 1925 carriers, would seem to define the CVL.

As a youngster and I do mean young, I spent a little time on aircraft carriers. Spent about a week on USS Ranger (CVA-61) back in 1961. I was all of nine years old. In 1965 I went out for a day on USS Enterprise for a dog and pony show. And in 1966 I went out on USS Wasp (CVS-18) a couple of times, once on a two day equipment check and then again for about a week or so for one of the Gemini recoveries. Being a kid on a carrier . . . good duty if you can get it.

Regards,

Rich

 

[trackend]

Thanks for that intresting read Rich. I've never been on a carrier but I must admit I wouldn't mind a nose around the Nimitz.
I believe (I'm sure you will be able to correct me Rich) the arrestor wire and Steam catapult came from the RN where as the crash barrier and Deck Landing Officer (batsman) where a USN innovation.
Do you believe top hamper a reason for the lack of deck armour on USN carriers or was it in your opinion to make the deck a sacrificial weak point as I noted that although the protection afforded by an armoured deck proved to be very useful in some cases , it was a two edged sword as found out by HMS Illustrious when attacked by the German airforce. After the success of operation Judgment at Taranto the Illustrious suffered severe damage having its lift blown out of the deck and a bomb exploding in the hanger deck where the pilots where mustered. As a fire precaution steel curtains divided the hanger space these where turned into shrapnel and accounted for many of the deaths it also proved very hard to fight the fires that raged below her decks even with the advanced sprinkler systems she carried.
One statement I found made by a member of the USN said "when a Kamikaze hits a US carrier its out of action for weeks. when it hits a British carrier they just send for the sweepers" obviously this is a tongue in cheek statement, I just wondered what your take on it was. Im much obliged for your fascinating posts Rich.

All the best
Lee

 

[Glider]

PLan D I am afraid that you are wrong. There is no doubt that the Hermes was the first RN carrier designed from the start as a Carrier. Any decent book on the history of aircraft carriers will back that up. That the lessons learnt were incorporated into the Ark Royal which was the best pre war carrier is also correct.
The Hermes was designed for fleet service and it should be remembered that Fleet was then seen as being scouting with the possibility of slowing down an opposing warship. Nearly all carriers carried surface to surface guns at that time, as in the scenario outlined above there was the chance that a destroyer would get through. The planes of 1920 ish didn't carry weapons big enought to sink large warships. Hence the 5.5 in.

 

[Glider]

If it helps. British carrier design treated the Hanger deck as a magazine with the fire fighting, segmentation, enclosed box design and not forgetting ventilation. This accounted for the heavier weight of the ships compared to the US carriers who tended to be lighter.
I think its generally considered that we went to far with the Illustrious class which had heavily armoured sides (4.5inches) to the Hanger and as a result only had one hanger deck. We later went back to the approach in the Ark Royal which had an armoured deck but didn't have armoured sides. As a result you went to two hanger decks and the compliment went back up to 72.
American carriers (up to the Essex) were less robust and the statement quoted about geting out the sweepers wasn't too far from the truth. The average time out of actio to a suicide plane was about three-five hours on a British carrier. On a US Carrier you were back in dock for weeks. Remember they had wooden decks.

The damage sufferred by the Illustrious would have sunk almost any other carrier in any other navy. The fires were hard to fight but they were fought, didn't spread and that was the key.

One observation about the number of planes carried. Things changed as the was progressed even on the same ship.

For Example the Illustrious Nominal Compliment 36 aircraft

Sept 40 15 Fulmars and 18 Swordfish
May 42 20 Wildcat and 20 Swordfish
Sept 43 28 Martlet, 10 Seafires and 10 Barracuda
May 44 28 Corsair and 21 Avengers
Mar 45 36 Corsair and 16 Avengers

Quite a difference

 

[plan_D]

The USN had unarmoured decks on their carriers so they could be easily repaired and the carrier put back in action quickly. That's what I've heard about it. A wooden deck is much easier to replace.

 

[trackend]

All this is very intresting fellas cheers lads

 

[R Leonard]

I make it a practice not to indulge in the great armored, or armoured, depending on your point of view, flight deck debate. All too often it results in extremely unkind things being said by the partisans of both sides and a whole lot of inaccurate numbers and analysis being tossed about with great conviction. I can see the advantages and disadvantages to the armored flight deck and the same for the unarmored flight deck/armored hangar deck combination. And, indeed, I do have my opinion, but you won't see it here. In all due respect to all, I'll just decline to comment on that particular subject.

So, what else?

Arrestor wire systems? USN origin, for sure.
Catapults, generally? USN origin, powder charges, hydraulics and the like.
Steam catapults specifically? RN origin - an what a vast improvement over all before in performance and safety!
Crash barrier? from my reading USN origin, but willing to entertain other opinions.
Landing Signal Officer (LSO) - USN origin (kind of goes along with arrestor systems)
Angle Decks - RN origin
Fresnel landing systems - IJN origin

Rich

 

[trackend]

That's cleared Up a few points rich cheers.
Jumping ahead 60years or so for a second I found this on the two new Proposed carriers HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales (Personally I would prefer Ark Royal and Illustrious for names)
I noticed with some interest that they are considering using electro magnetic catapults if development is successful. I shall wait and see if the construction of these ships takes place with the way things are in the world I think we need them badly but cost is always a constraining factor.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/cvf/

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

it's just not gonne be right without atleast one named Ark Royal, we've always had an Ark Royal!! it's just wrong!!

 

[plan_D]

You forgot the mirror-sight and ski-jump, RN origin.

Of course we'll still have the Ark Royal. The Royal Navy can't sail without the Ark Royal. Plus, it's our flagship now.

 

[trackend]

It may sound over patriotic but I think the British have always had in general the best ship names the Bismark was a great ship but the name Warspite sounds better Or Revenge,Repulse, Illustrious. Indefatigable,Victory,Ark Royal they all sound like they could whack anything afloat even before they fired a shot and the little ships like the old flower class Corvettes had the opposite, dainty names to go with their small size like Snowberry,Eyebright,Mayflower or Bittersweet.

 

[plan_D]

H.M.S Wolverine was a Corvette, not really a soft name.

I agree, the Royal Navy has the best names.

 

[evangilder]

For ships, yes. Some of the WWII airplane names were not so good though.

 

[plan_D]

Well, the fighters were normally storms - the bombers cities. It's quite a simple naming process.

 

[evangilder]

I was talking more about some of the others like gannett, etc. But I am off topic, my bad. Please continue...

 

[maxs75]

On the other hand, there were authorized prior to the US entry in to WWII thirteen Essex class carriers. Authorized in June 1940 were

three: Essex, Yorktown, and Intrepid. Another ten (Hornet, Franklin, Ticonderoga, Randolph, Lexington, Bunker Hill, Wasp, Hancock,

Bennington, and Boxer) were, a month later, authorized. After the US entered the war an additional 19 Essex class carriers were authorized

between July and September 1942. Of these six were canceled on 28 March 1945, as they were never started, and the under construction

Reprisal and Iwo Jima were canceled on 12 August 1945. In all, twenty four Essex class carriers were completed. Off the top of my head,

fourteen of them saw combat service in WW2. Also constructed were another 9 CVLs and, without counting fingers and toes, about 99 CVEs.

AFAIK Bennigton and Boxer (CV-20 and 21) were authorised just after Pearl harbour in the additional 1941 (or 1942?) program.
CV-31-40 were authorised in august-september 1942 (all but CV-35 completed, Bon Homme Richard CV-31, and Shangri la' CV-38 saw action in

WW2). CV-45-47 were probably authorised in june 1943 (only CV-45 and 47 completed) and CV-50-55 authorised in 1944 (??) and cancelled in

march 1945, along with CVB-56-57 of the Midway class.

A popular misconception. Permanent battleship losses at Pearl Harbor were two, Arizona and Oklahoma. Most heavily damaged was West

Virginia, then, somewhat in order of severity, were California, Nevada, Tennessee, Maryland, and Pennsylvania. All of these last six were

repaired, some obviously taking longer than others, modernized, and returned to the fleet.

Right. West Virginia and California were extensively rebuilt and the rejoined the US fleet in mid 1944. Just after PH only Colorado was

operational in the Pacific, but the ships of the New Mexico class were soon transferred from the Atlantic, as well as carrier Yorktown.
The pre-treaty slow battleships had very small use in the Pacific until the Gilbert operation. Maryland and Colorado were deployed in South

Pacific during the Guadalcanal campaign, but they didn't fight a single battle.

The first fast battleship (North Carolina) reached the Pacific carrier task force only for the Guadalcanal Operation (august 1942). Until

after Midway the US carriers were escorted only by heavy cruisers (and from Midway by the light cruisers of the Atlanta class, designed for

anti aircraft protection) and destroyers.
North Carolina escorted Enterprise in the battle of Eastern Solomons (aug. 1942). She was torpedoed by a japanese submarine in september.

She was substituted by sistership Washington and by South Dakota (She was delayed by damage from and undersea reef). During the battle of

Santa Cruz (oct. 1942) Enterprise was escorted by South Dakota, Washington was in another task group.
During november South Dakota was damagaed during a night surface battle, but Indiana arrived in south Pacific a few time later. North

Carolina joined at the beginning of 1943, bringing the total number to 3.

Later in 1943 Washington was substituted by Massachusetts, that was involved in the north African landing at the end of 1942. The repaired

South Dakota and the new Alabama operated with british Home Fleet in mid 1943.
At this stage of the war only Saratoga was operational (Enterprise badly needed refit, Ranger was not suited for Pacific, four other were

sunk in 1942, the Essex was not yet ready). 3 CVE of the Sangamon class were used as auxiliary fleet carriers, and Victorious was detatched

from Home Fleet and operated with Saratoga in south Pacific.
They operated with mixed air Groups (fighter on Victorious, and attack planes on Saratoga). I am interested in having details of this

operation. Could you help?

All six ships of the North Carolina and South Dakota classes were involved in the Gilbert landings (nov. 1943). Later all operations of

fast carrier task force was escorted by 6-8 fast battleships.


Rich, just a small mistyping:

The easiest illustration of this is Enterprise and Saratoga going out in November 1941 to ferry aircraft to Wake and Midway.

They were Enterprise (F4F to Wake) and Lexington (SB2U to Midway).

Note that all were started before the US entered WWII, and indeed, three of them before WWII even started in Europe.

Four of them were started before WW2 (North Carolina, Washigton, South Dakota and Massachusetts).

Max

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Just to break things up - here's a photo of the USS Kittyhawk and USS Independence at Pearl Harbor in 1998. I was told this was the first time 2 US fleet carriers were docked at Pearl since WW2. When everyone got leave, downtown Honolulu looked liked a scene from the movie "1941."

 

[trackend]

They sure are very imposing vessels Fly great pic, it really brings home their tremendous size.
HMS Wolverine was a V W class Destroyer D . Still a great name something that harries, gets stuck in and won't quit easily
I thought that some of the aircraft names where given by the British to American aircraft Evan.
but as you say Thunderbolt, Lighting and Mustang sounds better than Lysander,Swordfish or Blenheim.
Spitfire,Hurricane and Typhoon ain't bad though.
Perhaps I should start a thread on pick a name for a plane say instead of Lancaster it should have been called say the Avro Obliterator.

 

[plan_D]

Mustang was the name given to the P-51 by the British.

My bad on the H.M.S Wolverine. I've never actually seen it, I just remembered it from when I read about the U-47 and I got it mixed up with H.M.S Camellia and H.M.S Arbutus (Both Corvettes).

 

[evangilder]

The Lightning was also a British designation. The P-38 was originally called the "Atlanta". Lighting is much better!

That is a great shot, FBJ! Those are some Big ole boats!