Confirmed....Hitler escaped to Argentina ¡¡¡

T4.H said:

-> Don't make me angry. I don't know, how old You are.
5?

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Calm the **** down!

He was not insulting anyone. That is the way Erich talks. It was not directed at you but at everyone and it was not meant as an insult!

Also for your info, Erich has very close relatives who flew with rather famous units of the Luftwaffe in WW2...

T4.H said:

As I know Yes.
Stalin didn't like it.
He wanted to get him alife.
He was not amused.

I have to leave now.

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No these dental tests were done about 10 years ago....

Stalin was long gone.

T4.H you for one do not even know who you are talking with so lets quit the disrespect. As Adler mentioned I have relatives STILL living in Deutshcland, two that flew in the LW and both KIA, at least 5 that served in the Heer, 4 killed on the OST front 1 still with us living amongst the vines of the pfalz where my familie originated and are now spread all over the country.

What I have on Hitler and his so called suicide is from CIA documentation back in the 1960's with regards to a Herr Müller which you should know something about .......

ok enough of this, I'm bored with the subject mater, back to aircraft shall we

Herr Schicklgruber is as dead as ****ing
Davy Crockett's Hat and has been since 1945.

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I think you will find that Davy Crockett's hat died somewhat
earlier than 1945...More like 1835...

By the by Erich did any of your relations fly against the
384th BG?

lucanus good question, 1 cousin flew in JG 301, 5th staffel and was shot down and KIA with P-51's from the 355thfg or 2nd SF. His JG 301 had attacked Libs from the 491st who lost 16 confirmed and 5 Libs from the 445th bomb group. This was his second mission - 26 November 1944.

His first mission was on - 21 November 44 and I am trying to find which US heavy bg his JG 301 attacked. Was the 384th attacked this date over the Reich ?

E ~

Yes they attacked Altenbergen, Germany a RR Viaduct,
They lost no aircraft - This was a B-17 Group. I would be
interested in comparing some of the notes I have from
my Uncle...Below is the link to their web page it list
all the missions as well as aircraft lost
384th Bomb Group

I have one other question not on topic: Ever heard of a
Brandlebrache Hound...My wife saw one in a dog show and
some Teutonic DNA in her wants one, as far as I can figure
they are used to hunt Stags and their breeding is very hush
hush...No pressure just a question8)

I said one submarine ?

I was wrong, actually two came. The other was the U-977, this arrived late august 1945 and was the one in wich allegedly an important figure of the N.S.D.A.P arrive,

what figure ? ...well...guess who

On 10 May, 1945 U-977, in Norwegian waters when Germany surrendered, put ashore those men who did not wish to accompany the rest of the crew on a desperate voyage to Argentina.

Surrender in Argentina in August, 1945
The boat left Kristiansand, Norway on 2 May, 1945 for a combat patrol in the English Channel. When Germany surrendered a few days later the boat was outbound in Norwegian waters. After deciding to head for Argentina Schäffer gave the married men on board the chance to go to shore. Roughly a third of the crew, 16 men, opted for the shore and were put on land on 10 May near Holsenöy in dinghies. They all ended up in British hands. U-977 then sailed for Argentina; from May 10 to July 14 the voyage was a 66-day continuous submerged Schnorchel run, the second longest in the war (after U-978's 68 days).
The journey was extremely difficult for the crew and many were apparently on the edge of a nervous breakdown. The boat stopped in Cape Verde Islands for a short swim break and then headed south on the surface using one diesel. Crossing the equator on July 23 she arrived in Mar del Plata, Argentina on 17 August for a total patrol length of 108 days.



The commander, Heinz Schäffer, published a book in 1952 called U-boat 977 about his journey.

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uboat.net - Boats - U-977

OK, Erich, perhaps I have had a bad day yesterday. So please don't be mortally offended any more.

I have a nice citation for you.
Erich Hartmann was a russian POW for 10 years. After the revolt in "Schachty" he came to the prison camp in Diaterka (1953). In this camp were the most famous german POW's.
There he met Otto Guensche (and it seems get a friend of him).

Citation:
Raymond F. Toliver/Trevor F. Constable: Holt Hartmann vom Himmel! Die Geschichte des erfolgreichsten Jagdfliegers der Welt (The Blond Knight of Germany)
ISBN 3-87943-216-3
43. Auflage 1981

page 284-287 (pages 285 and 286 a pictures)

"Die strenge Haft und die unterschiedlichen Charaktere der Mithäftlinge fuehrten zu staendigen Streitigkeiten. Hartmann sah sich meistens als Verbuendete von "Sigi" Graf von der Schulenburg und Otto Guensche. Hitlers Exadjutant, gross, blond und ein Bild unerhoerter Kraft, war eher ein Mensch von ruhigem und freundlichem Wesen – ganz das Gegenteil von dem, was man erwartet hätte. Guensche's letzte Aufgabe in Deutschland war es gewesen, die Leiche Hitler's nach dessen Selbstmord zu verbrennen.
Er erzaehlte Hartmann waehrend ihres einjaehrigen Zusammenseins die gleiche Geschichte mit den gleichen genauen Einzelheiten immer wieder ohne Ausschmueckungen oder Uebertreibungen. Nach Hitlers Selbstmord trug er den in einen Teppich eingerollten Leichnam hinter den Fuehrerbunker in Berlin.
Sechs oder sieben Kanister Benzin wurden über den eingewickelten Körper gegossen, über 100 Liter Benzin durchtraenkten den Teppich und den Boden der Umgebung. Ein Streichholz setzte das ganze in Flammen. Trotzdem wurde der Körper nur oberflächlich verbrannt."

OK, I have not the time, to write it in english. Perhaps you can read english or ask Chris.
As I know, E. Hartmann was not a Nazi. He was "only" a less or more "nonpolitical" young soldier. He has no reason to lie. It seems, that he believes this story. We are here in the "Warbird" Forum. So Erich Hartman is perhaps one of your Heroes. Perhaps you choose the name "Erich" because of "Erich Hartmann". You didn't want to say that "Erich Hartmann" is lying?

Another story: One soldier and his group got the command to take the fuel out of the cars, which were standing in another bunker. He did it and brought the fuel to the entrance of the "Fuehrer-Bunker". He was realy angry, because they just survived, the russian granates where landing around them on there way on the surface. At the entrance he met some and asked, why he has to do such a stupid thing. They said to him: "Frag nicht, ist für den Fuehrer...". Then he saw them carrying him upstairs.

Everyone in the bunker knows, that AH wanted to commit suicide. He was not as stupid as "Saddam Hussein". He knew, that he could not escape. He knew, that they would find him erverywhere. He didn't want to end like "Mussolini", hanging head down at a fuel station. And he didn't want to end in Moscow. He wanted to die in Berlin.


>>>>>>>>>

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

No these dental tests were done about 10 years ago....

Stalin was long gone.

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I think, this story is not true.

Lets remember...I saw it several years ago on TV...and read it in a Paper somewhere...

Like anyone else, AH go to a dentist to his surgery somewhere in Berlin. OK, the surgery was destroyed, all documents and X-ray photos did not survive the bombing raids and the battle of Berlin. Like most of Berlin.
The russians found the dentist and brought them to russia, he stayed there (of course not alive).
I saw an interview with the man, who's job was to interview this dentist in russia at this time. He was one of the bosses of the crew, searching for AH. The dentist could describe the teeth structure of AH and the work he has done. OK, I could understand, why he remembered the structure, AH was the most famous patient he has had. I also would remember, if I would be his dentist.
In this interview I couldn't find any hint, that this russian was lying. His body language was true.

T4.H

I come from a very old German familie in the Pfalz by the name of Baer-or Bär. Remember a great LW ace by that name........you guessed it we are related. He was born in the valley that my relatives still live in and they are just on the northern edge of the Pflazland at Grünberg and up the western hill of Bad Hönnigen. now you knw what my Familie background is besides I am also Italien with Familie name of Castelli both on my mothers side. Of course my Fathers side is from the Caln Lemont which is Scottish later turned into Brown, my ancestry is in this caln and througb research found they were hired assasins.......

~ In any case I am not going to hold anything against you, you are giving your opinion which is fair and I am giving mine which I also think is fair but know full well that the last month of the war their was complete chaos in Berlin and along the Elbe river, the Soviets were not everywhere like many claim to be so therefore I feel strongly that things and people could easily have been placed elsewhere even giving accounts in POW camps to well known personalities from Otto to Erich H.

The strict detention and the different characters of the fellow prisoners led to constant disputes. Hartman mostly saw himself as allied one from "Sigi" Guen to count of the school castle and petrol. Hitler Ex adjutant, largely, blond and a picture of outrageous strength, was rather humans of calm and friendly nature - whole the opposite of what one would have expected. Guensche's last task in Germany had been it to burn the corpse Hitler's after his suicide. It told during its one year's Zusammenseins the same history with the same exact details again and again to Hartman without decorations or exaggerations. After Hitler's suicide he carried the body rolled up into a carpet behind the leader bunker in Berlin. Six or seven cans gasoline were poured over the in-wound body, over 100 litres gasoline impregnated the carpet and the soil of the environment. A match set that whole in flames. Nevertheless the body was only superficially burned."

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translation
of T4.H's passage for those who don't speak German-My German is a
little rusty

'From The Last Days of Hitler-The Legends-The Evidence-Truth' by Anton Joachimsthaler.

T4.H said:

I think, this story is not true.

Lets remember...I saw it several years ago on TV...and read it in a Paper somewhere...

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Let me guess. Stern, Spiegel or Das Bild?

'From The Last Days of Hitler-The Legends-The Evidence-Truth' by Anton Joachimsthaler

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Interesting, do you know why the X-ray was took for ?

( I know for medical reason but I mean if was a dentist, traumatologist, etc)

CharlesBronson said:

Interesting, do you know why the X-ray was took for ?

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Dr Erwin Giesling working with Dr Carl Von Eicken, were Hitler's ENT specialists. They treated Hitler's ear injuries caused by the assassination attempt of 20 July 1944. At the time of the X-ray Hitler was 'suffering' from a festering infection in his left maxillary sinus. Not long after this he had dental surgery performed by Hugo Blaschke (10th November 1944) as a result of a massive infection in tooth No 6 in the left upper Jaw. Since this tooth formed part of a substantial bridge and Hitler refused lengthy treatment, Blaschke decided to cut off the section of the bridge with teeth 5 and 6 and extract tooth 6. Someone has 'added' this dental work to the X-ray.

Dr Giesling had a falling out with Dr Morell, and Hitler terminated his employment (along with others) and subsequently served in a military hospital in Hamburg. Arrested by the British in June 1945 and held until March 1947. After his release he practised in Krefeld where he died on 22 May 1977 aged 69.

I don't believe Hitler's psychological profile was set for suicide.

I think it is quite feasible he fled Berlin and made it to South America.

At the Potsdam conference in July, Stalin said he believed Hitler was in Spain or Argentina.

Eva Braun's statement regarding Hitler's Munich-based double, that he "wears built-up shoes to overcome a height difference," possibly explains the 5 cm height discrepancy of the body autopsied.

The last visitors to the Chancellery bunker were Hanna Reitsch. Hanna was the greatest woman pilot in Germany.

Story has it after the Hitler double was set up in the bunker, she flew Hitler to Sweden, and Hitler made his way to Argentina by U-Boat.

Odds are good Hitler lived out the rest of his life in serenity and without anxiety. There is even a photo of him at age 107 that can be found after a google search.

Hitler was not a guy to give up, or surrender. These things were not apart of his psychological profile.

My bet is he escaped.

Sorry dude, but evidence and MANY witnesses prove otherwise. If you really look at Hitler's psychological profile in the last days he was a rambling mess, commanding divisions that didn't exist and living in a world of grand illusion. Crazy and drug induced, Hitler was a suicide waiting to happen. After the war Stalin painstakingly gathered evidence to make sure Hitler was dead.

BBC News | EUROPE | Russia displays 'Hitler skull fragment'
National Geographic TV: The Identification of Hitler´s Head (Hitler´s Skull Teeth - ForensicWiki)

Even Hanna Reitsch testified to that....

Dr Erwin Giesling working with Dr Carl Von Eicken, were Hitler's ENT specialists. They treated Hitler's ear injuries caused by the assassination attempt of 20 July 1944. At the time of the X-ray Hitler was 'suffering' from a festering infection in his left maxillary sinus. Not long after this he had dental surgery performed by Hugo Blaschke (10th November 1944) as a result of a massive infection in tooth No 6 in the left upper Jaw. Since this tooth formed part of a substantial bridge and Hitler refused lengthy treatment, Blaschke decided to cut off the section of the bridge with teeth 5 and 6 and extract tooth 6. Someone has 'added' this dental work to the X-ray.

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Thank you, I forgot the little "incident" of july 20th. How a person could survive being so near to a briefcase full of plastic explosives

I also saw some years ago that Hitler used cocaine for some eye infection, he was a pretty wasted man in that last year.

In the year 2003 the discovery Channel made a documentry about this topic called "Hitler of the andes" playing with the idea of the possible escape of Hitler to our country. According to some witness A.H stay in Bariloche (Rio Negro province) and La falda (Cordoba province)

lafalda - Busqueda Google de imágenes

If anybody know about torrents (cuz I dont) can download from here:

http://www.torrentvalley.com/download_torrent_84119.html

Laobao said:

I don't believe Hitler's psychological profile was set for suicide.

I think it is quite feasible he fled Berlin and made it to South America.

At the Potsdam conference in July, Stalin said he believed Hitler was in Spain or Argentina.

Eva Braun's statement regarding Hitler's Munich-based double, that he "wears built-up shoes to overcome a height difference," possibly explains the 5 cm height discrepancy of the body autopsied.

The last visitors to the Chancellery bunker were Hanna Reitsch. Hanna was the greatest woman pilot in Germany.

Story has it after the Hitler double was set up in the bunker, she flew Hitler to Sweden, and Hitler made his way to Argentina by U-Boat.

Odds are good Hitler lived out the rest of his life in serenity and without anxiety. There is even a photo of him at age 107 that can be found after a google search.

Hitler was not a guy to give up, or surrender. These things were not apart of his psychological profile.

My bet is he escaped.

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There you are wrong. Hitler was very dissapointed in the German people and was a depressed man because of the war situation. He said so on several occasions.

Rather than give the allies the luxury of capturing him he was willing to kill himself.

Laobao said:

possibly explains the 5 cm height discrepancy of the body autopsied.

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According to Joachimsthaler, up to 300 litres of gasoline were used on Hitler and Braun.

When the human body is burned in the open by means of petrol, the first thing that burns off is the extraneous petrol, which causes a strong heating up of the corpse. Then, because they act like a wick, the fire spreads to the clothes, which burn away more or less quickly depending on the nature and structure of the fabric. When the open flames act directly on the body surface (estimated at 2.5metres squared) for a longer period of time-according to witnesses, the corpses burned from 1600hrs to 1830hrs- the final result is carbonisation. During the process, steam forms in the subcutaneous tissue and in the course of the burning the pressure can rise dramatically, so that the body surface bursts open in many places. The skull can burst from the same effect. The heat causes the protein in the cells of the muscles to congeal, which then contract. This leads to contortions (arms) or the lifting up and contracting of the upper body and legs, which stay in this position because of posthumous heat rigor (so called 'fencer's stance'). The heat causes the body fat to melt and the fatty acids released hydrolytically run out of the gashes in the skin, are absorbed by the fabrics still remaining and, because they are flammable just like the fat tissue itself, support the further burning process. Because of the major loss of substance (water and fat), the carbonated corpse or torso shrinks to a substantial degree. If the burning continues for an extended period of time, the soft tissue is almost completely consumed. The only thing that remains is fragile, calcified bones that can easily disintegrate even without external force being applied.

There was no body, there was no autopsy.

When Frau Heusermann ( Blaschke's dental assistant) was captured and transported to Finow, by the Russians, she was shown a cigar box (containing Eva Braun's bridge and two of Hitler's bridge's,-which survived the 'cremation'). Laughing the Russian soldiers gathered round, opened the lid and gleefully told her 'Here is the Fuhrer'.

Joachimsthaler points out;
'In the final analysis, by presenting the evidence coming from Adolf Hitler (upper bridge and complete lower jawbone with teeth and bridges) and from Eva Braun-Hitler (a small gold filling and a synthetic resin bridge with a gold crown), the Russians themselves-and this must be emphasised-proved conclusively that Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun-Hitler were dead'.

Where is the picture of Hitler a 107? Is it really real?