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You never made the limitations clear in post #511. I just wanted to add that the Corsair could only follow for a half-turn because that's what the report stated.
I gave your post a positive rating so my intentions weren't to attack your credibility here. I'm very sorry if that's how you feel.
Gents,
If a lesser turning aircraft can get into what is today called the "control zone", it should be able to maintain an offensive position and kill a better turning plane. I will also state that the control zone has also been called "saddled up" previously. It is similar to getting an adversary face down, with your knee in his back and your gun against the base of his skull. Stronger, faster, better turning he may be but lost the battle he has.
Yes the Zero could out turn pretty much everything it faced, however that doesn't make it impervious to another type getting into position and passing on a dose of lead poisoning from a turning fight. Yes the accepted tactic was hit and run because that worked better the majority of the time. The Corsair had an option to stay a little longer if in a favorable position to push the attack.
Cheers,
Biff
By American standards of the time, he was an inch shorter than an average male. 5'8" and 150 was standard at the time, current standard is 5'9-5'10".Dawncaster said:The book shows that Brown did, but that does not mean that most other pilots do. Brown had less than average stature.
The Royal Marines had their own aviation arm?Ronnie Hay, an ace of Royal Marines, praised Corsair's cockpit size.
By American standards of the time, he was an inch shorter than an average male. 5'8" and 150 was standard at the time, current standard is 5'9-5'10".
The Royal Marines had their own aviation arm?
Well, it is an interesting perspective. Thank you for pointing out.
It seems that fighter pilots run the height range ordinary human beings fit into. Statistically the average human being would be a good starting point.Did the pilots have a higher average stature than other peoples?
I don't know, but in the past some Navy guys were a bit taller...Otherwise, I wonder why Eric Brown was famous for having a nickname of 'Winkle' due to his small stature.
OkayA number of Royal Marines were Fleet Air Arm pilots during the war.
"It is the opinion of the board that generally the F4U is a better fighter, a better bomber and equally suitable carrier aircraft compared with the F6F. It is strongly recommended that the carrier fighter and or bomber complements be shifted to the F4U type."
Yes the US Navy definitely loved the F4U (and rightfully so), but fearing that there may be problems with it's development asked Grumman for a design as well. Thankfully the "Iron Works" produced an aircraft which at first inception was an outstanding carrier-born fighter, more than capable of providing the needed "muscle" for the US Navy until the F4U had all of it's problems ironed out. Good thing too, because the important battles at Truk, the Marianas, and Leyte Gulf (among others) were all decided by the time the first F4Us were given permanent shipboard duty (seven months after the May '44 report).
During the final year of the war these carrier-based F4Us ultimately achieved less than a third of the aerial victories awarded to shipboard F6Fs during the same period (573 vs. 1734), allowing the "Cat" to take top honors as America's premier carrier fighter once again.
The F4U had to be content with being the more successful land-based fighter of the two designs.
But you missed the fact that Hellcat was given much more opportunities.
It was basically pilot's claims in action reports, so it was very exaggerated.
Remember that Corsair was a far latecomer compared to Hellcat as carrier based fighter. Mostly Hellcat had an overwhelmingly superior situational advantage compared to Corsair. Many pilots in the Hellcat have experience in combat for various situation and have a good understanding of how to keep their combat effectiveness in tandem with the fleet. Under the proper control of the Murderers' Row they boasted a tremendous air-to-air combat efficiency. Corsair did not have those situational advantages. In late 1944, when the Navy built a new squadrons for Corsairs(mostly it's VBF), they had less average experience and skills than the most Hellcat squadrons.
While the Hellcat squadrons showed excellent radio communication with good efficiency against japanese fighters, but Corsair squadrons, on the other hand, was surprise attacked and defeated by omitting warning to each other.
Mis-identification of enemy aircraft was prevalent since the dawn of aviation. It happened with Hellcat units as well.In addition, during this period, against 343 Kokutai, Corsair pilots reported almost all of bandits as Zeke, Tony, Tojo, and Oscar. But they were all N1Ks. NASC conducted an analysis based on the reported identification. Therefore, there is a doubt about the conclusion.
So it is to say the Corsair did well her duty despite adverse conditions. If Corsair had more time to gain experience, it would have been able to show full potential.
For example, Hellcat did not surpass Corsair during the period until early 1944, even if it is limited to the period of Rabaul Air War(from 12 october 1943 to 19 february 1944). Because the fleet at that time did not offer the advantage to the Hellcat as much as the Battle of the Marianas or later yet and had less opportunity...
It is due to the fact that the attrition warfare made over Guadalcanal, Solomon, and Rabaul drove Japanese aviation power into a brain dead condition in solomon.
She fought against better organized and more experienced, powerful enemies as allied main fighter. Although direct damage have been given by bombers, it's a worthy achievement as a fighter aircraft.
So Hellcat became 'Ace maker' and best carrier based fighter in pacific, It's also due to its easy flying characteristics and the high survivability.
So It is inappropriate to use figures alone without consideration of the situation. .
It must be pointed out that the F4Us in this test included water injection which was just becoming operationally available. The P-51B easily outperformed the non-water F4Us from SL to ceiling in airspeed and climb. The advantage shown in this comparison was real after the advent of the water injected F4Us. However, this disappeared in a flash in only four months when high octane fuel was approved for the P-51B, and again, the P-51B was significantly outperforming the F4U-1W/-1D in airspeed and climb from SL to ceiling.Well looks like a lot of history buffs have weighed in on this topic, so I'll throw in my .02 for laughs. I tend to trust the tests performed by the various service branches at the time
since their very lives often depended on accuracy. Of course, we can't rule out inter-service rivalries, so a comprehensive view of all the branches performing tests on the various aircraft tend to give a better all around idea of the historical performance. Naval testing early F4U-1 aircraft versus the P51B seems to indicate the F4U the superior perfomer at lower altitudes, while the P51B was faster at higher alts. Interestingly, in this test the F4U had superior climb throughout the alts. More importantly, the maneuverability of each aircraft was tested and the nod went to the F4U, but again, this was a naval test so some bias might be there.
Now this test was conducted by the Army in August 1943 (Beginning of the USAAF bombing campaign in Europe?) as an evaluation of the P38/P47/P1 versus the rival service's F4U. Again, it's interesting to glean some of the same things as was implied in the Navy test conducted above..
After the neutralization of the Philippines, approximately 100 AAF pilots, fresh out of flight training, were diverted to the South Pacific. Were these guys thrown in P-39s and then went to face some of the best combat pilots in the world. Could this have a good result? Would the results be better if they were flying F4Fs. The Navy pilots, flying F4Fs, were more experienced than these AAF pilots.The truth is that in that 3 month period, something like 60 p-39s were lost or written off. in exchange they shot down or destroyed by their own hand less than 10 zeroes and perhaps as many bombers
And you missed the fact that the Corsair was given much more opportunities in the Solomons as well. Should we diminish the Corsair's accomplishments there, while at the same time make excuses for the Hellcat? Of course not, that would sound like sour grapes. Why use that sort of logic in regards to the Hellcat's wartime successes then?
The Corsair was in action six months before the arrival of the Hellcat. Do you think that this had something to do with it as well? I never claimed that the Hellcat was "robbed" of having a greater victory tally during this period due to lack of opportunity. According to NACS, from October '43 to February '44 Corsair units destroyed 620 aircraft, while both carrier and land-based Hellcats destroyed 564. Congrats to the Corsair pilots for a job well done, but it's not like the Navy didn't show up during this period either....
According to NACS (are we allowed to quote this source anymore?) the Corsair destroyed 366 aircraft before the Hellcats arrived in the Solomons. With the rampant over-claiming you spoke of earlier, just how much of a dent did this actually make in Japanese air power there? And while I will agree that the Japanese lost much during the preceding year, they were still a very formidable force and were able to cause much havoc for the allies where ever they were found.
During the same time aboard ship the Hellcat officially destroyed three times the number of aircraft as the Corsair. That means that the US Navy utilized it more for the missions at hand. And it was able to deliver. That makes it the more successful carrier fighter of the two. Period.
Agreed. Why not give the Hellcat pilots (and the US Navy for that matter) some kudos for this? Their accomplishments shouldn't be reduced just because the average FITRON was a disciplined and highly organized fighting unit.
So who should be blamed for this?
This would apply just as much to Corsair. And there were many more "claims" made in the action reports than what we see in NACS. The numbers reflect what the squadron intelligence officers and commanders deemed as aircraft actually DESTROYED, and they did their very best to eliminate duplicating and optimistic over-claiming. Did over-claiming make it into these reports? Sure it did! But this sort of thing happened everywhere, in every country, and with every unit. It's disingenuous to single out the US Navy flyers and ignore the others which were guilty of the very same thing.
Mis-identification of enemy aircraft was prevalent since the dawn of aviation. It happened with Hellcat units as well.
There were still many competent Japanese fighter units flying well into 1944. Even in 1945 the Japanese were known to inflict heavy losses on well trained allied air units. Hellcat pilots had to deal with them as well.
You wrote 'final year of the war these carrier-based F4Us ultimately achieved less than a third of the aerial victories awarded to shipboard F6Fs during the same period', So I just explained the situational advantage of F6F during that period. The F6F has already been deployed for a year and has been operating on an aircraft carrier, but the F4U was in the process for placement.
It is very inappropriate to say that such situations for both models were the same 'opportunity'.
It was never my intent to claim that your favorite fighter couldn't have accomplished the same record as the Hellcat if given the same opportunities, just that it didn't.
In addition, I did not miss early solomon. It clearly outlined the results of the F4U fighting in 1943, including for six months before the arrival of the F6F. It was worse situation than when F6F's arrival, and F4U faced fierce resistance while climbing the Solomon ladder. It was an advancement and it was not an opportunity like the F6F's huntings in 1944~1945........F6F already had more opportunities, from October 1943 to February 1944, F6F had about 40% more action sortie than F4U.....
I never claimed that the Hellcat was "robbed" of having a greater victory tally during this period due to lack of opportunity. According to NACS, from October '43 to February '44 Corsair units destroyed 620 aircraft, while both carrier and land-based Hellcats destroyed 564. Congrats to the Corsair pilots for a job well done, but it's not like the Navy didn't show up during this period either....
Overall, there is no doubt that during the war the F6F was a better carrier based fighter in World War II. It's excellent carrier operational capability and sufficient performance were enough to take the opportunity......
But for me it seems that you insist that F6F is generally three times better than F4U .....
And there was no competent Japanese fighter units against TF 58 in 1944. Please teach me if such Japanese squadron exists.
The F6F Hellcat, supported by superior fleet tactics, had been able to gain a overwhelming situational advantage mostly. Throughout all countries of World War II, there was no any ground based fighter could surpass the F6F with TF 58, It's bases were always moving for tactical advantage and it's strength was almost invincible. more than 10 aircraft carriers and a nearly thousand shipborne aircrafts - The Murderers' Row had fantastic combat capabilities and it was impossible to surpass them in normal fighting.
Trying to return to Hellcat & Corsair performance in Europe.
Their main shortcoming seems to be that they couldn't perform the bomber escort mission due to their range and altitude performance. On the other hand, the comparative tests show that they would have been quite competitive with the FW190 and mildly superior to the Bf109 in many altitude regimes. If one objectively looks at the comparative performance of many Allied aircraft in the Pacific, against the IJAAF and IJNAF, vs their performance in the Mediterranean and Eastern Europe vs Luftwaffe aircraft, one would conclude that the Hellcat and Corsair would do quite well.
It's ok, even two people with English as their native tongue can be misunderstood when it's in written form. Obviously you are very well educated on the subject and are quite passionate about the Corsair, just as I am about the Hellcat. I think we both want to get the facts straight but sometimes it's hard when the only way we have to express ourselves is with the use of words.Totally Agreed.
Yes, It's unnecessary comments for other directions, as I worte.
I apologize for My lack of understanding of english.
I never knew that what I wrote would be interpreted as a robbery of opportunity. I just hoped that they would be accepted as having different opportunities. but it was
basically off the subject, as you worte.
Why did I ...
The ferry losses from Townsville to Moresby were blamed on weather. The missions were flown and weather closed in causing the losses. A bit more experience or training and they probably would have waited a bit, but the planes were desperately needed at Moresby.Don't know, but there was a LOT of training done in Australia for the new arrivals. moreover, the early ferry flights from Townsville to Moresby via horn Is proving to be a disaster. some sources say as many as 16 P-39s were lost in two separate ferry operations, separated by just a few days, In april. A likely cause for these losses would have to be crew inexperience.....probably having the power setting set incorrectly, and not at max cruise.
As a piece of trivia , 7 of those ditched P-39s were scrounged and repared by the RAAF, entering Australian service in early 1943. There were a few other worn and/or damaged P-39s discarded by 8FG that were gifted to the RAAF also entering Australian service from late 1942. The RAAF copies were not liked at all. They did enter squadron service but were never risked in open combat, for the most part they were kept back in Australia for advanced training and home defences. we preferred the thoroughly ordinary CA-12 and CA-13 over the P-39 for front line operations. Ultimately the majority were returned to the USAAC, generally between July 1943 and about March 1944. For that we received discounts in the delivery of other, better Lend Lease aircraft. The USAAC never used these returned P-39s. On return, they were immediately scrapped, before even the war was over,, which is quite unusual for a wartime aircraft. .
http://www.adf-serials.com.au/research/Airacobra.pdf