Joe2
Banned
Could D-Day have succeded without air support? Just wondering.
D-DAY
- Thread starter Joe2
- Start date
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lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Probably so, as most of the Luftwaffe in France was destroyed and/or too few of numbers to make much difference...
Yeap Les, it is not like the Luftwaffe showed up for D-Day anyhow.
I would say it would of succeeded as as both Les and Chris have said the Luftwaffe didn't turn up so the was hardly any opposition from the air anyway.
If the Luftwaffe had shown up with some Stukas and some Fw-190s for cover they could have made it a bit messy but the allies had numerical superiority at that point and they would have gained control over the beaches pretty quick.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
If the Luftwaffe had shown up over Normandy, they would have done minimal damage and would've been decimated due to the Allied numerical supremacy...
Probably would have lost some to their own AA gunners as well...
Probably would have lost some to their own AA gunners as well...
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
unless he means in the build up to D-Day, in which case it's harder to call as aircraft did such a great job of knocking out defences and re-inforcements, but, ultimately it would have yeilded a similar, but much bloodier result.....................
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Agreed 100% Lanc..
why wouldn't it have air support ?
Agreed Les and Lanc. It would not have changed the outcome at all.
Well, I'm going to disagree. The Luftwaffe sent up many aircraft from D-Day to D + 10 in an attempt to destroy the invasion. These included Bf 110, Ju 87, Ju 88, Bf 109 and Fw 190 plus other types. Luckily, the likes of US 8th and 9th Air Force and 2nd TAF escort fighters/fighter-bombers caught them on their way to the beaches. It was a turkey shoot most days when lumbering Ju 88 were caught unescorted by the 2nd TAF Mustang IIIs.
The Allied ships and landing craft would have been at the mercy of the Luftwaffe and the number of casualties would have risen to tremendous heights. On top of that, the German panzer divisions which were hammered from the air by the Allied air forces could have moved in the day and arrived at the beach-head earlier. On top of that, places like Pont du Hoc would have not been hit - 2nd Ranger Battalion wouldn't have had a very nice time without air support, it had a hell of a terrible time with it!
I will go into detail later...
The Allied ships and landing craft would have been at the mercy of the Luftwaffe and the number of casualties would have risen to tremendous heights. On top of that, the German panzer divisions which were hammered from the air by the Allied air forces could have moved in the day and arrived at the beach-head earlier. On top of that, places like Pont du Hoc would have not been hit - 2nd Ranger Battalion wouldn't have had a very nice time without air support, it had a hell of a terrible time with it!
I will go into detail later...
I think the Airborne is still included. If not, the invasion would have been a total failure. 21st Panzer Division would have swept across the whole beach-head from the left flank...over the Caen de Canal...and all the way through 'til they reached Utah beach.
Oy Vey.
June 5 was scrubbed due to bad weather. The next available window after June 6 due to tides etc was too far away.
You would have had to go if the sea conditions were right, but the weather prevented flying. Otherwise Op-Sec would have been compromised.
Bad weather = ducks walking on both sides of the ditch.
Now we have a ground pounders war with 0 air support for either side, but a stinking HUGE artillery platform off shore.
Doable, but with major casualties above what was experienced, which was still under the high commands estimates.
Get the Paras loaded ASAP, send them in as infantry via boat with support weapons, now you have a formidable force for defence or offensive manouvering.
Prioritise AT off the beaches, chuck your pre load plan out the window and adapt to the situation within 24 hours with a shift of focus. Use heavy bombers who will hopefully be able to fly through the weather, to saturate targets inland with better visability, marshalling points, known barracks, stores, railways etc to isolate the area.
The whole of Europe can't be socked in the whole time.
Move, Adapt, Win. The breakfast of champions.
June 5 was scrubbed due to bad weather. The next available window after June 6 due to tides etc was too far away.
You would have had to go if the sea conditions were right, but the weather prevented flying. Otherwise Op-Sec would have been compromised.
Bad weather = ducks walking on both sides of the ditch.
Now we have a ground pounders war with 0 air support for either side, but a stinking HUGE artillery platform off shore.
Doable, but with major casualties above what was experienced, which was still under the high commands estimates.
Get the Paras loaded ASAP, send them in as infantry via boat with support weapons, now you have a formidable force for defence or offensive manouvering.
Prioritise AT off the beaches, chuck your pre load plan out the window and adapt to the situation within 24 hours with a shift of focus. Use heavy bombers who will hopefully be able to fly through the weather, to saturate targets inland with better visability, marshalling points, known barracks, stores, railways etc to isolate the area.
The whole of Europe can't be socked in the whole time.
Move, Adapt, Win. The breakfast of champions.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
The key to victory for the allies was totally complete and overwhelming air support.
SHAEF knew that and if the allied fighters and bombers couldnt do their job, then the allies were not going to invade.
SHAEF knew that and if the allied fighters and bombers couldnt do their job, then the allies were not going to invade.
If there's no air support for the Allied forces it would have been hell on the beaches. On 6th June alone the fighters of 2nd TAF claimed three Fw 190 destroyed and one damaged, four Ju 88 destroyed and four damaged. On the same day 8th Air Force P-51s encountered Ju 87s from a training unit and claimed twelve destroyed plus one probable. To U.S fighters of 8th and 9th Air Forces the Luftwaffe lost fifteen Fw 190s and one Bf 109.
The Luftwaffe was sending unescorted Ju 88 bombers to assault the invasion fleet, without Allied air support these would have made it. Instead, the ZG 1 Ju 88C-6s that attacked the beaches in mid-afternoon were turned away by Spitfires with four destroyed. This is only one instance, the Allies would have been obliterated.
The Luftwaffe was sending unescorted Ju 88 bombers to assault the invasion fleet, without Allied air support these would have made it. Instead, the ZG 1 Ju 88C-6s that attacked the beaches in mid-afternoon were turned away by Spitfires with four destroyed. This is only one instance, the Allies would have been obliterated.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Obliterated is a strong word...
Ju-88C's would have been mincemeat for the close in-shore Destroyers' AAA... With the VERY inclose proximity of German defenders with the attacking Aliies, the Luftwaffe would of had to re-refine the term "Close Support"...
The freindly fire casualties would have been too costly, and in all likelyhood, would have opened up a point of penetration for the Allies to expolit and secure a beachead...
I will definatly agree with u though, that the casualties would have unbelieveably severe on both sides had the Allies not secured air superiority over Normandy... Take into account though that the Luftwaffe was a shadow of itself due to the pre-emptive airfield strikes the 8th accomplished...
Ju-88C's would have been mincemeat for the close in-shore Destroyers' AAA... With the VERY inclose proximity of German defenders with the attacking Aliies, the Luftwaffe would of had to re-refine the term "Close Support"...
The freindly fire casualties would have been too costly, and in all likelyhood, would have opened up a point of penetration for the Allies to expolit and secure a beachead...
I will definatly agree with u though, that the casualties would have unbelieveably severe on both sides had the Allies not secured air superiority over Normandy... Take into account though that the Luftwaffe was a shadow of itself due to the pre-emptive airfield strikes the 8th accomplished...
You obviously dont live in Europe
