Decal disaster!

Discussion in 'Questions on Kits, Decals, Tools and Pilots' started by [SC] Arachnicus, Aug 9, 2012.

  1. [SC] Arachnicus

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    Yesterday I put the decals on the Yak-3 I'm building. The Kit is a Eduard. After I applied the decals I let them dry and set overnight. I use Micro sol and set and have been using it on all my models.

    So I sprayed a gloss enamel coat over it, (I use all Enamels). Right then I noticed a foggy haze around the clear ends of the decals and I knew something wasn't right. I thought spraying gloss over the decals was supposed to prevent that.

    Tonight I gave it a pastel wash and the next thing I know a big part of one of the decals came of and was stuck to my hand!

    I have never had a problem with decals until this build. Does Eduard make bad decals?


    Tom
     
  2. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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    Never used Eduard decals Tom, so no idea. Some of the others will no doubt know.
     
  3. Jayl

    Jayl Member

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    Did you put down a gloss coat before applying the decals? I've used Eduard decals a few times and have never had any problems with them.
     
  4. N4521U

    N4521U Well-Known Member

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    I've used the Eduard decals, but use the Future under and over them.
     
  5. jjp_nl

    jjp_nl Member

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    #5 jjp_nl, Aug 10, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
    Eduard decals can be hit and miss sometimes...some are/were printed by cartograph (I've seen them in some of their more luxurious releases such as their profi-packs) which work fine, others seem to be printed by Eduard them selfs and sometimes can be a little tough to work with, but based on my own experience it tends to vary from kit to kit. Decals themselfs don't cause hazing of mist, that most likely is due to paint and or clear coats under or above the decals reacting with something. Another possibility is silvering, basically trapped air under the decals, caused by an uneven surface under the decal, likely due to insufficient or no gloss coat prior to applying the decals. A picture of what it looks like might be helpful in assessing the situation better though.

    With a little extra work silvering can be dealt with quite sufficiently, even if decals are already covered by following clear coats. Punching a few holes with a needle or something in the decal surface and then touching it up with future, microset or micro sol can go a long way to achieve that. Not sure about misting or haze created by a reacting between paints and or clear coats. If paint coats are s*rewed up like that my first thought would be sand off the damaged paint coats (and decals too in al likelyhood) and redo it.
     
  6. lostinhull

    lostinhull Member

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    This - never had a problem with them using Future under and over before the top coat of lacquer goes on. The carrier film tends to be quite fine but that just makes them easier to bed down (and tear if you're hamfisted like me :))

    How old were they?
     
  7. N4521U

    N4521U Well-Known Member

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    Not old I am sure,
    My stash consists of 3 purchased within the last year. I usually get the kit just before the current build. Don't know how old some of the aftermarket decals have been, but are recent buys as well.
     
  8. [SC] Arachnicus

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    It's a fairly new kit. What is this Future I keep hearing about?
     
  9. jjp_nl

    jjp_nl Member

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    #9 jjp_nl, Aug 10, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
    Future is an acrylic glossy protective floor polish. Should be available at every self respecting supermarket. It's basically a low-cost alternative for a 'dedicated' gloss clear coat (you get a big bottle for a few bucks). It's is used to protect underlying paint coats and prepare a model for decals and further weathering. Applying decals just like that to flat finished models likely causes silvering. A nice and shiny gloss coat (be it through future or other 'dedicated' gloss products such as a gloss clear coats by revell, humbrol, model master etc.) helps create a nice even finish for decals.
     
  10. N4521U

    N4521U Well-Known Member

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    Future floor polish believe it or not!
    You can airbrush it, thin coats. Too heavy and it will run like a rabbit.

    Or you can apply with a brush, but a FAN brush like an artist oil brush, looks like a fan. But even with theis, just the tips in the polish and lightly brush. You'll be surprised how much liquid one of these brushes will carry.

    Apply the decals as usual. Then overcoat with another coat of Future, just the areas with the decals.
    You can then overcoat the works with a flat coat to finish.

    Do a test on an old kit laying around. It Will work!
    I heard about it for years, just tried using it since I joined in on the group builds.
     
  11. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Certainly sounds like silvering - that is, the decal was not totally adhering to the surface, and tiny air pockets reflect the light beneath, giving a silver-like 'haze' appearance. Even bucket loads of micro Sol or Set are unlikely to cure this, as these are designed to bed-down the decal on a gloss surface. The fact that a piece of decal came off virtually confirms this.
    As mentioned above, apply a clear gloss coat before applying the decals, and this should prevent any problems in the future.
     
  12. [SC] Arachnicus

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    I was able to solve the problem with spraying model master decal set. Trust me it's not coming off...lol.

    When airbrushing Future I have a couple questions...

    1) Do you thin it when airbrushing? If so, what do you thin it with?

    2) Do you only use future for acrylic paints?
     
  13. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I normally use it straight from the bottle, airbrushed or brushed on. I prefer the latter, as it can quickly clog-up the airbrush nozzle, and the 'brush must be thoroughly cleaned immediately after use, otherwise it'll set as hard as rock.
    Future can be used over any paint finish, and, if mixed with Tamiya Flat base, it can also provide a finishing coat of anywhere between full gloss to full matt.
     
  14. [SC] Arachnicus

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    I would try to thin it with acrylic thinner. Has that been attempted?
     
  15. Rogi

    Rogi Active Member

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    #15 Rogi, Aug 11, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
    You have to wait for the Sol and Set to set and dry properly, you also have to brush off gently with a Q-tip the set and sol once its on the decal, if you leave it floating or drenched in the stuff it won't settle down and once you apply any varnish over them they'll peel.

    Another thing, get the Tamiya Gloss I've found that some enamel varnishes can eat away at the decals causing them to peel. Also apply any gloss your sparying in light coats, You don't want the plane looking like its been drenched in water.

    There are too many reasons why the decal could of peeled and silvered, the only thing that matters is fixing it :).

    I've never had issues with Eduard decals, but I'll repeat that Future is amazing stuff and you should let it dry at least 2 days inbetween applications so for example

    Apply future to the painted model, wait 2 days,
    apply decals, wait 1 day to dry,
    apply future wait 2 days to dry,
    apply flat clear wait 1 day to dry, done :)

    Hope that helped, the reason why the decals were destroyed is simply, either over watered with gloss, solution (sol, set) or they havn't been given enough time to dry between the set of applications of themselves and varnish.


    Igor

    P.S. If you want to thin Future to give it a less gloss look thin it with water (it sounds crazy but it works :D) don't thin it with thinner it won't work that well. Because you use the thinner itself (or anything that contains ammonia) to remove future from the surface of the model) I've even used Tamiya acry. Thinner to remove future and its worked fine for me on models, but Windex is still the lax when it comes to removing Future.

    One more thing, apply Future as Airframes stated, with a brush to whatever entire surface (to keep a uniform gloss) to the model. If you apply it with a air brush you can clog it, and you'll end up cleaning it all night and through the morning :S
     
  16. N4521U

    N4521U Well-Known Member

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    I would listen to the voice of experience above. If you would like to "TEST", go ahead and test, but not on your project.
    I have sprayed, and brushed. BUT spraying, you better heed the advice above. I cleaned my brush IMMEDIATELY after spraying, and did no bluddy lollygagging around by leaving Future in the brush, or the cup.

    Period. Future from the bottle is the right consistency for either.
    But do a small test first, either way just to see how it all works.

    Let us know how it's going.
     
  17. [SC] Arachnicus

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    I have been reading a few articles reference Future and there appears to be a problem with it yellowing over time. Before I took it as fact, I made sure to check other sites and every article or forum, someone said that Future will yellow over time. The yellowing can be seen on the model after 5 years it was built.

    Comments or opinions?
     
  18. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I've only been using it around five years, so haven't seen the problem yet. However, virtually all clear varnish finishes will yellow after time, especially matt coats. This, of course, will depend on exposure to UV, with direct sunlight accelerating the process, and the environment in which the model is kept, with exposure to dust, possibly nicotine and so on.
    I have some models which are over thirty years old, finished in acrylic clear matt, and some in enamel clear matt, and most are reasonably OK. There is some slight yellowing on some of those with enamel varnish, but nothing too drastic, and the more recent ones are much better than some made many years ago, before the advent of more 'modern' coatings, when yellowing could occur within months of finishing.
     
  19. [SC] Arachnicus

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    I used decal set and it put a better gloss coat then actual gloss coat. I'm almost done and will post the finished kit very soon.
     
  20. N4521U

    N4521U Well-Known Member

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    So maybe I will do a test....

    3 1/72nd kits, cheap ones of course.

    1. Spray with Tamiya can paint, then can clear, decal, can matt.
    2. Spray with Tamiya acrylic, future, decal, future.
    3. Spray with Tamiya acrylic, future, decal, future, matt clear.

    Any other combos to test?
    These will be left in a window with Northern exposure.
    See what we come up with. And this Southern hemisphere will beat the crap outa them.
     
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