B-17engineer
Colonel
Thats an interesting model Welch....Wonder where you buy those 
Do 335 vs Me 262
- Thread starter SoD Stitch
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109ROAMING
2nd Lieutenant
Is that the Dragon kit?
Erich was their a proposed version of the Me-262b with just 2 30mm?
Their was the incident of Pierre Clostermann when he dived on a Do-335 from height in a Tempest but couldn't catch it
Was it as fast at Higher alltitude?
Erich
the old Sage
recon versions had two 3cm cannon sometimes these were even removed. Kurt Welters unit experimented with several types of arms combinations but that is another story........... for later
it has not been established as fact if Pierre pursued a Do 335 or not. sights were from all the Allies making notes seeing them in the air. Most likely this is all farce and in truth other LW a/c
it has not been established as fact if Pierre pursued a Do 335 or not. sights were from all the Allies making notes seeing them in the air. Most likely this is all farce and in truth other LW a/c
runningdog
Airman
My vote is for the 262, it was one of those planes such as the Spifire, that could do it's job from the word go.
What worries me about threads such as this is the common assumption that every thing would have gone to plan. No one knows, or it seems, cares, what the Allies would have done to counter massive quantities of these wonderplanes. From late '43 on, the Luftwaffe was like a boxer fighting for pride and praying for a lucky break. Essentially, once you are down to prayer, you're finished.
Unless it has a very limited purpose, any counter-attack by a weakening force against a vastly more powerful opponent will end in more expenditure than gain.
When you get to this point, forget pride, sue for peace, live to fight another day. Go to the table while you still have something to bargain with...........
What worries me about threads such as this is the common assumption that every thing would have gone to plan. No one knows, or it seems, cares, what the Allies would have done to counter massive quantities of these wonderplanes. From late '43 on, the Luftwaffe was like a boxer fighting for pride and praying for a lucky break. Essentially, once you are down to prayer, you're finished.
Unless it has a very limited purpose, any counter-attack by a weakening force against a vastly more powerful opponent will end in more expenditure than gain.
When you get to this point, forget pride, sue for peace, live to fight another day. Go to the table while you still have something to bargain with...........
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
Good post. But Hitler was too proud and stupid to surrender and save what was left of his country.
By late 43 a big part of Europe was still part of Germany, so I don't agree. One of Hitlers many mistakes was ruining the plans of his generals to stop the Allies ever getting a foothold in France. The Panzers should've been there. And then there's his countless mistakes in the east.
The war was far from decided in 1943.
The war was far from decided in 1943.
- Thread starter
- #27
SoD Stitch
Banned
Yes; in fact, Rommel, who at that time was in command of the Atlantic Wall, favored preventing the Allies ever establishing a beachhead, the sensible choice. It was actually von Runstedt, idiot that he was, who wanted to let the Allies land, then take them out with armor. Here is a quote from one of my sources (Battle Of The Bulge: Hitler's Final Gamble To Halt The Western Allies, by David Jordan, p. 13):
"Rommel found himself in almost immediate dispute with the Commander-in Chief West, Field Marshal Gerd von Runstedt, over the way in which the coast should be defended in the event of an Allied invasion. Von Runstedt wished to allow the Allies to land before attacking them with six panzer divisions as they were establishing their beachhead. Rommel was unconvinced by this idea: he was all too aware of the effect of air attack on armored columns from his time commanding the Afrika Korps, contending that the panzers would be destroyed by bombing and naval gunfire as they headed for the beachhead. The only way of defeating an invasion, Rommel argued, was to destroy the landing forces as they came ashore."
runningdog
Airman
OK, perhaps, quite likely, on reflection, I set the date too early, but Hitler's dependance on the 'wonderweapons' wasn't so fanatical at that point. He believed he had other options. In, I'll change it to early '44, he was being pushed back towards the ropes, once the 'breakout' occured he was on them, being attacked from both inside and outside the ring.
After that, nothing worked, except on a limited tactical scale Even then, the VI, V2, Battle of the Bulge, Me262, name what you will, each new counter-attack cost the Axis more than it harmed the Allies.
To use boxing phraseology again, Germany was no longer punching it's weight against two much more powerful opponents. One (the West) who could outreach him, and Russia who was far too strong, too close, for it to matter.
The war in Europe was over as soon as Germany expended more energy delivering a blow than it cost the Allies to absorb it. The 'wonderweapons' did nothing but cost more lives.
On the subject of Hitler himself, oh I agree, he became one of the Allies best assets. However, I doubt without his imagination that the war would have got as far as it did. Too start with he was Germany's most fearsome weapon..........
I still don't agree, you're not being objective.
The reason the Me-262 didn't have a collosal impact was again because of a number of stupid mistakes by Hitler. The first mistake was delaying its entry into service until mid 44 while it infact was ready already in late 43. Furthermore the Me-262 was designed purely to be a fighter, Hitler however made his second big mistake here by suddenly getting the "bright" idea that it was to be used as a fighter-bomber! The Me-262 was however not suited for the role of fighter-bomber as the a/c was so clean an fast that it would quickly exceed the 1,000 km/h safety speed in a dive, rendering it useless in the role. Yet Hitler forced MTT to focus production on a fighter-bomber version (A-2) instead of the lighter faster fighter version (A-1a), and had them operate as fighter bombers for some time before finally realizing himself, in light of the huge success of the Me-262's operating as fighters, that he had made a painful mistake. First from then on did the Me-262 mainly operate as a fighter interceptor, the role it was designed and built to perform from the very beginning, and in the air it acquired itself the highest Kill/loss ratio of any a/c of the war (90% of all Me-262's destroyed were so while either landing, taking off or whilst sitting on the ground). However by then it was too little too late.
Anyway that's just the issue regarding the Me-262, Hitler made plenty of other big mistakes in the same timeframe which also contributed to Germany's final defeat. One of them was not listening to Rommel and other generals pleading him not to allow the Allies to ever set foot in France in the case of an invasion. Instead Hitler made the grave mistake of listening to Rundstedt who not only expected the invasion elsewhere, but also positioned the Panzers too far back. And then when the invasion finally came Hitler held back the panzers from quickly heading to aid the beach defenders, and this was despite his generals letting him know how vital that was, allowing the Allies to gain a foothold on th beach.
And the list of mistakes goes on and on. In short the war was far from over even in mid 44. The Germans could've prevented the Allies ever coming ashore in France, and they could even have pushed them back when they did, but Hitler amongst other screwed up every chance to do so.
Now that having been said the Germans couldn't have won the war by 1944, but they could've brought it to a standstill. Then comes the question "for how long?", well that's anyone's guess.
The reason the Me-262 didn't have a collosal impact was again because of a number of stupid mistakes by Hitler. The first mistake was delaying its entry into service until mid 44 while it infact was ready already in late 43. Furthermore the Me-262 was designed purely to be a fighter, Hitler however made his second big mistake here by suddenly getting the "bright" idea that it was to be used as a fighter-bomber! The Me-262 was however not suited for the role of fighter-bomber as the a/c was so clean an fast that it would quickly exceed the 1,000 km/h safety speed in a dive, rendering it useless in the role. Yet Hitler forced MTT to focus production on a fighter-bomber version (A-2) instead of the lighter faster fighter version (A-1a), and had them operate as fighter bombers for some time before finally realizing himself, in light of the huge success of the Me-262's operating as fighters, that he had made a painful mistake. First from then on did the Me-262 mainly operate as a fighter interceptor, the role it was designed and built to perform from the very beginning, and in the air it acquired itself the highest Kill/loss ratio of any a/c of the war (90% of all Me-262's destroyed were so while either landing, taking off or whilst sitting on the ground). However by then it was too little too late.
Anyway that's just the issue regarding the Me-262, Hitler made plenty of other big mistakes in the same timeframe which also contributed to Germany's final defeat. One of them was not listening to Rommel and other generals pleading him not to allow the Allies to ever set foot in France in the case of an invasion. Instead Hitler made the grave mistake of listening to Rundstedt who not only expected the invasion elsewhere, but also positioned the Panzers too far back. And then when the invasion finally came Hitler held back the panzers from quickly heading to aid the beach defenders, and this was despite his generals letting him know how vital that was, allowing the Allies to gain a foothold on th beach.
And the list of mistakes goes on and on. In short the war was far from over even in mid 44. The Germans could've prevented the Allies ever coming ashore in France, and they could even have pushed them back when they did, but Hitler amongst other screwed up every chance to do so.
Now that having been said the Germans couldn't have won the war by 1944, but they could've brought it to a standstill. Then comes the question "for how long?", well that's anyone's guess.
109ROAMING
2nd Lieutenant
Alot of good info in that post Soren!
Rundstedt plan really was stupid even if the panthers were in the right positions , RAF typhoons would of crippled them
on a doco I watched the other day an american said "when I saw those RAF typhoons flying over I thought to myself I'm sure glad they're on our side"
one question about D-day, on the movie saving private ryan on D-day when alot of americans are being gun downed on omaha why wasn't there any air support? I know there was an estimated 2000 american dead on omaha beach, is the movie incorrect or is that how it happened? why wasn't there a squadron of P-47 or P-51's assigned to taking out these positions just before the troops hit the beach? and thus save alot of americans lives?an allied stuff up?not enough planes?
runningdog
Airman
We're never going to agree on this, mate. In fact, I think we're arguing two different perspectives, I'll call it quits if you will, I'm sure we'll clash again.
LoL, runningdog.
PS I meant to add that I agree with you on Hitler's role in the later part of the war.............
Soren
Quote:"The first mistake was delaying its entry into service until mid 44 while it infact was ready already in late 43."
Powered by which engine, Jumo 004B wasn't ready in late 43?
Quote:"Yet Hitler forced MTT to focus production on a fighter-bomber version (A-2) "
And Willy didn't have any part in that decision?
Quote:"in the air it acquired itself the highest Kill/loss ratio of any a/c of the war ."
And what that magical Kill/loss ratio was?
Quote:"90% of all Me-262's destroyed were so while either landing, taking off or whilst sitting on the ground"
Have you already forgot Drgondog's message on 15th July
"So far, for the distribution of the combined 339FG, 352FG, 355FG and 357 FG jet awards, there were 44 Me 262 Awards. Of those (~40% of all 8th AF awards) that I have looked at in the last day -
25% (12)were hit at altitude and resulted in destruction or bail out
50% (22)were hit at altitude, chased and destroyed while attempting to reach protection of airfield flak and air cover but not in landing pattern.
25% (12) were destroyed during take off or landing."
Soren, realistic picture on Me 262 can be find for ex. from Boehme's JG 7
Juha
Quote:"The first mistake was delaying its entry into service until mid 44 while it infact was ready already in late 43."
Powered by which engine, Jumo 004B wasn't ready in late 43?
Quote:"Yet Hitler forced MTT to focus production on a fighter-bomber version (A-2) "
And Willy didn't have any part in that decision?
Quote:"in the air it acquired itself the highest Kill/loss ratio of any a/c of the war ."
And what that magical Kill/loss ratio was?
Quote:"90% of all Me-262's destroyed were so while either landing, taking off or whilst sitting on the ground"
Have you already forgot Drgondog's message on 15th July
"So far, for the distribution of the combined 339FG, 352FG, 355FG and 357 FG jet awards, there were 44 Me 262 Awards. Of those (~40% of all 8th AF awards) that I have looked at in the last day -
25% (12)were hit at altitude and resulted in destruction or bail out
50% (22)were hit at altitude, chased and destroyed while attempting to reach protection of airfield flak and air cover but not in landing pattern.
25% (12) were destroyed during take off or landing."
Soren, realistic picture on Me 262 can be find for ex. from Boehme's JG 7
Juha
Try not to rely too much on Wiki Juha..
It was very much ready, but again Hitler delayed its journey to full scale production by temporarily cutting the budget. Had Hitler not stalled development then the vibration problems would've been solved in late 1943 (Cutting rpm from 9,000 to 8,700 rpm) and the engine could enter full scale production.
No absolutely not, he protested against it, but if he wanted the jet to enter service it had to be made a fighter-bomber Hitler told him, and so he was forced to produce the A-2 version.
Possibly 10/1 if not higher
I haven't forgotten Bill's comment at all, but the Me-262 shot down 600+ Allied a/c in the air, so you do the math.
It was very much ready, but again Hitler delayed its journey to full scale production by temporarily cutting the budget. Had Hitler not stalled development then the vibration problems would've been solved in late 1943 (Cutting rpm from 9,000 to 8,700 rpm) and the engine could enter full scale production.
No absolutely not, he protested against it, but if he wanted the jet to enter service it had to be made a fighter-bomber Hitler told him, and so he was forced to produce the A-2 version.
Possibly 10/1 if not higher
I haven't forgotten Bill's comment at all, but the Me-262 shot down 600+ Allied a/c in the air, so you do the math.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
And there were a lot of screw-ups with the BoB, although many were not caused directly by Hitler.
109ROAMING
2nd Lieutenant
Goring aided Hitler in losing the BoB
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
I forgot to add the 'not" (fixed now). That's what I had intended to imply, there were several reasons resposable for screw-ups in the BoB. (in addition to Goring, there were also other problems caused by the RLM and some of the doctrines therof)
drgondog
Major
Soren - I gotta ask. what is your source for 600+ allied a/c shot down?
And correspondingly the source for losses? I have the 8th AF VCB awards for air to air on 262's which was 110. There are slightly fewer for USAF 85.
What LW records are you using?
And correspondingly the source for losses? I have the 8th AF VCB awards for air to air on 262's which was 110. There are slightly fewer for USAF 85.
What LW records are you using?
Erich
the old Sage
Bill supposedly Jg 7 alone scored some 450 kills. well maybe 250 and that is it, not counting the 50 that supposedly Kommando Nowotny claimed, will not say what 10./NJG 11 claimed as it will be covered in my book(s). we have KG 51 and 54 as well
sorry to say that nearly 3/4r's of the Jg 7 kills are not covered in text only a scant in books now printed.
JG 7 must say made a dire impression on the 8th AF which then in turn went to the 15th and because of it JV 44 which claimed 50 kills but probably scored 20 was held as a unit of experten which is a joke, most pilots enver even flew the 262 except on familiarization trials on the tarmac or grass fields, a great unit to hide out until the war was over your life was secure until captured by Allied forces.
Also to the end of JG 7 we know as well they made quite the deadly impression on the Soviets with most of the missions and kills never recorded down or in fact were lost
sorry to say that nearly 3/4r's of the Jg 7 kills are not covered in text only a scant in books now printed.
JG 7 must say made a dire impression on the 8th AF which then in turn went to the 15th and because of it JV 44 which claimed 50 kills but probably scored 20 was held as a unit of experten which is a joke, most pilots enver even flew the 262 except on familiarization trials on the tarmac or grass fields, a great unit to hide out until the war was over your life was secure until captured by Allied forces.
Also to the end of JG 7 we know as well they made quite the deadly impression on the Soviets with most of the missions and kills never recorded down or in fact were lost
