Do 335 vs Me 262

[Juha]

Hello I agree with Erich on Ospreys written by Weal, even if I like his LW fighter aces books, in those there are nice pieces of LW pilots' memoirs but as factual history books, no. On the other hand some Ospreys are good, some bad and some between. It's entirely question on author's skills. And those reprinted USAAF studies like Long Reach and Twelve to One are gems, IMHO.

On the other hand Boehme's JG 7 book seems to be well researched unit history, same to Radtke's KG 54 book. Haven't see Forsyth's JV 44 books.

Soren
IMHO Price 100 air combat Me 262 losses were not far of mark. Kommando Nowotny lost appr. 6 in air combat, on 25th Feb II./KG(J) 54 lost 6 in air combat and on10th Apr JG 7 and I./KG(J) 54 lost 31 out of 76 participated. I took the losses from Price's newest article in International Air Power Review Vol. 23 because I don't have time to check my copy of Radtke's book but Boehme gives JG 7 losses on that day as 13 lost and 14 missing a/c. So the Kommando Nowotny's air to air losses and the air to air losses of the IIRC two worst days of Me 262 fighter units already sum up as 43 air to air losses. So 100 air to air losses seems entirely possible.

KK
that Brewster kill ratio is accepted claims vs real losses. I have never bothered to count the real one but because the claims incl. the 42-43 air combats over Bay of Finland during which in the light of our current knowledge there seems to be combats were Finns overclaimed badly, even if generally Finns were not notorious overclaimers, I would say that real kill ratio of FAF B-239s was somewhere between 16:1 to 9:1, just an educated guess.

Juha

 

[Juha]

Soren
forget Galland and read Boehme's JG 7 book, you would get much better picture on Me 262.

Juha

 

[Erich]

I agree with Juha, Gallands overall assesment was when he was in charge of the Jagdflieger and before he was regulated with coming up with his buddies for JV 44. He was told what he wanted to hear of course during late 44-early 45 there was nothing to declare as such being good for the LW or the 3rd Reich

then the mark of the traitors began against the "Fat one"

 

[delcyros]

However, what I fail to find in the deliberations is the impact of the Swallow's Jumo turbine mean time between overhaul (MTBO) impact to 262 operations. My understanding is that the hot section of the turbine was severely limiting the MTBO to about 20hrs and this, along with maintenance training in the field, was causing a severe shortage, thus severely crippling 262 operations.

We often tend to focus upon the glory of pilot operations, but when in reality the number of hours necessary to keep those pilots peforming their missions are significantly outweighed in manhours by maintenance personnel in their support.

Any insight on this aspect of 262 effectiveness?

The issues concerning MTO of the Jumo-004 were considerable but in no ways more grave than for the BMW-801 for the Fw-190A in France during mid / late 1941. The BMW-801 had an equal MTO interval. In many ways, the service required to put the jet engine back into operation was even less. The whole hot turbine section could be replaced in within a shorter timeframe and inspected on the ground or sent back to service maintenance depots for further investigation. I am not sure how the service work of the engines crippled Me-262 operations beyond what the fuel and general spare part situation inflicted but it would be interesting to know.

regards,

 

[Njaco]

first I would not believe most of the text written by any osprey author even if you paid me, that also includes their camo, and markings of LW A/C.

I've heard that before and only put it up for discussion sake.

 

[kool kitty89]

I think the biggest problem in the late war period in terms of the Jets was the state of the transportation system. There was no shortage of fuel stockpiles available for the jets, but that fuel was difficult to distribute in addition to replacement engines and parts. Similarly it would be difficult to rotate the engines through Junkers repair depots if they were not close to the airfields. (an additional bonus of the 003 is that it took less time to change the hot section, and this could be done without having to remove the engine from the wing)


In the case of the 004B's hot section, the turbine blades were made of either Tinadur or Cromadur which were similar to stainless steel. The combustion chambers were made of mild steel sprayed with aluminum. (I believe the aluminum was supposed to oxidized and form a ceramic coating of heat-resistant aluminum oxide, as aluminum its-self was more vulnerable to heat than steel)

The 003's annular combustion chamber was also made of mild steel.

 

[Erich]

KK am not sure about that in the case of JG 7 as they seem to fly on every mission known for the LW prop jobs, obviously for a variety of reasons they could not get every pilot/jet up from the two existing gruppen in the JG on the day's events

E ~

 

[kool kitty89]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

There was a real shortage of aviation gasoline in addition to the damaged transportation network, but the jets used J2 which was basicly diesel fuel. (which there were still large supplies of at the war's end)

I'm not sure how much effect the state of the trasportation system had on the maintainence/repair though.

 

[Juha]

Soren
because lack of time I was too blunt in my message #62.
My point is that be careful while reading Galland's book. Like many other military leader one of purposes of his memoirs was to make his actions look good by a bit enlarging his successes and by glossing over his mistakes. Memoirs are often a bit problematic because of that phenomenon.

Of course one must not take Boehme's words as the ultimate truth either but it is a serious study.

Juha

 

[Soren]

My point is that be careful while reading Galland's book. Like many other military leader one of purposes of his memoirs was to make his actions look good by a bit enlarging his successes and by glossing over his mistakes. Memoirs are often a bit problematic because of that phenomenon.

Now that I believe is BS. Galland didn't try to hide or excuse anything for sure, there was no point in doing so. It was a post war comment, relating to how things really were. I think it's a pretty low blow to call him a liar.

Also your loss figures for the JG 7 and JG 54 don't mention wether the a/c was shot down while trying to land etc etc or wether it was lost due to mechanical issues. Therefore you cannot conclude the figures as being air to air losses.

I doubt more than 50 Me-262's were shot down in actual air to air combat.

 

[Erich]

so Soren what I hear you saying is that someone needs to do a study on this - air losses by the Me 262 units...........what you ask is not unheard of and can be worked out not 100% but probably at 85 % wi the records given

go back to my responses in Joe's Prop vs German jets thread, there is some useful info there.

KK alright my explanation was not meant as confusion, transportation of parts, engines whether in whole or not was not the problem, the constant moving from one field satellite or no was. many of the 262 fields were being driven more westward by the Soviets, and gruppen were becoming more and more split up due to camo reasons and the literal chaos of the day. in the case of Kommando Welter at Burg having your small band nearly vaporized at Burg did not help matters at all during a daylight B-17 raid.

 

[Soren]

Erich do you have a ca.85% secure figure on how many Me-262's were shot down in actual air to air combat, which means not while trying to land, missing (Because that could very easily be because of mech. issues with the engines), or cut off while limping toward the airfield at low altitude ?

From what I gather around 50 Me-262's were shot down in air combat, and I counted the ones you mentioned in the Prop vs Jet thread.

 

[drgondog]

Erich do you have a ca.85% secure figure on how many Me-262's were shot down in actual air to air combat, which means not while trying to land, missing (Because that could very easily be because of mech. issues with the engines), or cut off while limping toward the airfield at low altitude ?

From what I gather around 50 Me-262's were shot down in air combat, and I counted the ones you mentioned in the Prop vs Jet thread.

Soren- if the a/c is in the air and it is shot down, it is an air to air loss. The figures I gave you were a sampling of the awards for the groups I cited and the encounter descriptions. We all know that awards for both sides were frequently overstated - but the claims at the squadron level were even worse because they were not yet evaluated by a 'higher and competent objective authority'. There is so little that we can say about the 'final award review' for LW high command in 1945. They were busy.

The circumstances were even worse relative to History because primarily after 1944, only a smattering of squadron level reports and subsequent research by historians like Dr. Prien and Price have been able to pull LW records to some form of cogent and clear analysis. And 1945 is still a big 'fog'.

When the USAAF and/or USAF lose an a/c to a mid air collision in the presence of enemy fighters it is an air loss whether they were fired upon or not. Ditto for hitting the ground when Chasing an enemy a/c. One could say 'operational loss - pilot error' but that isn't the standard! The same could be said for 'He couldn't land fast enough to escape being shot down and killed'

That is the standard I used in compiling my own 'air loss' statistics. I even counted a 355th P-47 hit over Holland, evaded but later crashed attempting to land in UK - as an 'air loss' not an 'operational loss'.

Picking '105' Me 262s AWARDED as destroyed in the air by 8th AF has at least the gun film/wingman encounter report and 9th AF VCB and USAF 85 review process to validate the award as contrast with Claim -
And - is a higher level standard of proof than pilot memoirs and claims at LW pilot level - when no final review of witnesses or film are recorded. Ditto for Loss records which are sketchy at best.

So, you may doubt what you doubt, but perhaps you should offer your logic and facts to support your version of the 'truth'?

 

[Soren]

Are there 105 seperate USAAF gun camera films of shooting down Me-262's Bill, is that what you're saying ? If so that's a first for me.

 

[Juha]

Soren
well You can believe what you want. But it is difficult to assess accurately Me 262 as a fighter without reading the history of clearly the most important Me 262 fighter unit, namely JG 7.

Quote:" Now that I believe is BS. Galland didn't try to hide or excuse anything for sure, there was no point in doing so. It was a post war comment, relating to how things really were. I think it's a pretty low blow to call him a liar."

Now look the Galland quote in your signature, what you think about its accuracy? Where are the Me 262s allocated to JG 7, KG (J)54, 10./NJG 11 and so on? What they are if not fighters? So how truthful the quote is? Does the quote really gives the realistic picture how Me 262s were allocated?

Juha

 

[Soren]

You can believe what you want as-well Juha, as usual.

As for my signature, well tell me what's wrong with it ? The answer is 'Nothing'. What Galland said is that only fifty 262's were 'allowed to be used as fighters', by which he means NOT as fighter-bombers as Hitler wanted. Or are you trying to suggest that the JagdGeschwaders didn't contain any fighter-bombers ??? If so I suggest you research the subject just abit.

 

[Juha]

Soren
JG 7 and KG(J) 54 flew daytime interception missions, that was their job. If that is new for you, read even some modern books on Me 262.
And do you really believe that 10./NJG 11 was a fighter bomber unit?

Juha

 

[Soren]

Did I ever mention the NachtJagdGeschwaders ?? Nope.

So tell me Juha, in which engagement did over 50 Me-262 fighters take part ? None that I know of.

Oh and btw, KG 54 mainly flew fighter-bomber missions.

Like I said, Galland just told it how it was.

 

[Juha]

Hello Soren
Quote;"in which engagement did over 50 Me-262 fighters take part"

As I wrote, on 10 April 45, JG 7 alone sent 55 Me 262s to intercept a huge USAAF bomber raid.

Quote:"Oh and btw, KG 54 mainly flew fighter-bomber missions"

No, as the (J) in the correct unit designation shows, it was a fighter unit. KG 51, without (J), was the fighter bomber unit.

I hope you will show a little more respect to JG 7 pilots, for ex to
Majors Ehler, Eder, Hohagen, Rudorffer, Späte, Staiger, Weissenberger, Hptms Reinert, Schall, Oblts Schuck, Waldmann, Lts Rademacher and Tegtmeier to name only few. They really were jet fighter pilots. Steinhoff was the CO of JG 7 before he was sacked.

So IMHO you should update your knowledge on Me 262 operations, the truth is a bit different from what Galland's wrote. But of course its up to You. Have a nice Sunday.

Juha

 

[Soren]

I think you will find that the JG 7 didn't send up 55 fighters, and that a good number of the a/c were A-2a fighter bombers. (Yes the JG-7 contained A-2a fighter-bombers)

And I hope you'll show abit more respect for Galland in the future.