Do 335 vs Me 262

drgondog · Sep 17, 2008

Erich said:
Bill supposedly Jg 7 alone scored some 450 kills. well maybe 250 and that is it, not counting the 50 that supposedly Kommando Nowotny claimed, will not say what 10./NJG 11 claimed as it will be covered in my book(s). we have KG 51 and 54 as well

sorry to say that nearly 3/4r's of the Jg 7 kills are not covered in text only a scant in books now printed.

JG 7 must say made a dire impression on the 8th AF which then in turn went to the 15th and because of it JV 44 which claimed 50 kills but probably scored 20 was held as a unit of experten which is a joke, most pilots enver even flew the 262 except on familiarization trials on the tarmac or grass fields, a great unit to hide out until the war was over your life was secure until captured by Allied forces.

Also to the end of JG 7 we know as well they made quite the deadly impression on the Soviets with most of the missions and kills never recorded down or in fact were lost

Erich - I was and am impressed with the 262 - always. Having researched a pretty fair amount of the LW claims to US losses in trying to pinpoint 'loss to cause' for 8th, I have been impressed by one key fact - the overclaims were close to 2:1 if Tony Woods compliation is correct. And Tony has very few awards relatively speaking fro 1945. Thus my curiosity for all sources.

Erich · Sep 17, 2008

JG by Manfred Boehme, the word on JG 7 well at least so far. it is not real specific on the missions flown nor the kills, have had the original German version since first put out, some errors rectified, and I have tons of pasted notes within, still go back to it often.

the Classic pubs 4 volume set on the 262 some of it is war diary with some interesting text not all correct especailly on Kommando Welters unit. A callsic though it is.

Foreman/Harvey Me 262 war diary, a different book of text, the pics suck. some 200 claims by the LW 262 units covered in brief and the RAF/US response to the units.

an older title but still a good one : Jet Airplanes of the 3rd Reich by Smith/Creek, covers nearly all the operational LW jets including some very strange proto's and futuristic plans

Alfred Price has covered time and time again the 262/Ar 234 and other rocket/jet kills in some of his books.

I could go on and probably should as there are several German publications written over the years with differences of opinion(s) as to the number of proven kill-claims.

Roger Freemans book on the 8th covering day to day missions what has been interesting for me as I continue to search and write about the 262 vs 8th/15th AF fighters is the amount of limited coverage their-in and in fact most of the downings from February of 45 till wars end by the LW is in the shape of JG 7's jets, and is hereby noted by the US 8th AF bomber crew veterans that observed the Swallows flying through the rear to front of the Bombers. Bill you have probably noted from time to time the limited discussion that I and others have had about this very item on armyairforces.com. few of the vets responded due to the fact that nothing they could do physically to bring the jets down as they could not track the jet with their point .50's.

runningdog · Sep 17, 2008

Soren said:
runningdog said:

We're never going to agree on this, mate. In fact, I think we're arguing two different perspectives, I'll call it quits if you will, I'm sure we'll clash again.
LoL, runningdog.[/qoute]

Well I'd like to know which part it is you disagree with specifically.

Click to expand...

First off, I think you're entirely right about the Stalingrad thing. It's not as if no one attempted to warn him of the oncoming weather and the dangers it posed for ill-equipped troops.
As for my specific disagreement, it's not specific, it's general. The ability to manufacture Me 262's in the numbers required was already beyond the Third Reich unless they robbed resources from other projects. That's my point, no matter how effective the 262 might have been it would have cost more to deliver than it's effect.
Even if it had blunted the Allied air offensive, and that is simply conjecture, it would have had little effect on the Russian onslaught. I've not argued for or against any particular date for the war's end in Europe, simply about the moment it was lost.
You, it seems to me, are like Hitler himself was, arguing possibilities, hoping for miracles. I try to argue probalities.
That said, nothing is certain in war, which applies to my arguments as well as yours.

Juha · Sep 17, 2008

Hello Erich
in 1994 Price claimed that after careful study of both sides claims and losses he had came to conclucion that Me 262 pilots shot down appr. 150 a/c and lost appr. 100 Me 262s in air combat. Now I don't claim that Price's words are the ultimate truth, they are not that at least to me, but I doubt that he made a huge mistake. Anyway, he probably didn't have accurate count on Soviet losses even if that is a possibility because early 90s was the time when access to Soviet military archives was easiest.

I recall that in Boehme's G 7 book there was calculation of Me 262 claims but when I leafed my copy, the English translation, that didn't catch my eyes but Richard T. Eger has counted from Boehme's book that between Jan 1, 1945 and May 3, 1945 JG 7 scored 225 or 226 confirmed victories and 37 probables.

Soren
when Hitler cut Jumo's budget?

Juha

Erich · Sep 17, 2008

Juha yes that why I tried to point out about JG 7 kill-claims most likely in the 250 range including or maybe not the Soviet a/c shot down, things like this are almost unknown. I think upon further study Alfred Price has tired to correct some of the mis-givings he had but it is still tough with records not available to some degree
Welters kommando shot up at least 50 at night so to add to JG 7 right now we have roughly 300 kills, this is again not counting anything from Nowotny's small band nor JV 44 nor the KG (J) units, and the EJG.

Personally for the Me 262 in the entirety I could possibly believe 350-400 claims as being plausible, nothing more

E ~

Soren · Sep 17, 2008

Ok so we have 350 to 400 kills in the air for how many losses in the air ? 50 or 60 ?

IIRC the Me-262 units together claimed 600+ Allied a/c shot down.

Erich · Sep 17, 2008

it's too many kills though I can believe that 600 were claimed by ALL LW jet units but confirmed ...........nope

do not think there is a standard for how many 262's were confirmed destroyed whether on ground as a ground kill or in air combat, landing, taking off or in aerial actions

kool kitty89 · Sep 17, 2008

In any case Soren, your earlier statement on the kill/loss record being the best of any WWII fighter would be incorrect unless it could beat 26:1. (of the the B-239)

Soren · Sep 17, 2008

Aaah that would be the Finns.

Excluding the Finnish Brewsters, the Me-262 held the highest kill/loss ratio in the ETO.

Matt308 · Sep 17, 2008

As a novice in this subject, I find this discussion most fascinating.

However, what I fail to find in the deliberations is the impact of the Swallow's Jumo turbine mean time between overhaul (MTBO) impact to 262 operations. My understanding is that the hot section of the turbine was severely limiting the MTBO to about 20hrs and this, along with maintenance training in the field, was causing a severe shortage, thus severely crippling 262 operations.

We often tend to focus upon the glory of pilot operations, but when in reality the number of hours necessary to keep those pilots peforming their missions are significantly outweighed in manhours by maintenance personnel in their support.

Any insight on this aspect of 262 effectiveness?

Erich · Sep 17, 2008

reason along your lines Matt is that the 262's of all the jet units could only have enough juice to do one fly through the rear of the US/RAF bomber formations before they had to head home. there was no loiter time, besides it happened too fast

this was the case in a slightly different way for the Lw nf force operating the bird, many times just trying to find the LSNF Mosquito force was hard enough and a true gas guseline effort

Njaco · Sep 17, 2008

I've also read that the MTBO was actually 10 - 15 hours until they cleared up the engine problems. Anybody know what time it was increased to and when?

Also according to Hugh Morgan and John Weal in Osprey they give this:

Approximate victories by unit:
Epr. 262 - 12
KG 51 - 8+
Kommando Nowotny - 22
II./EprJG 2 - 40
JG 7 - 500
10./NJG 11(Welter) - 48
JV 44 - 55+
KG (J)54 - 50
Total - 735+

kool kitty89 · Sep 17, 2008

Early jet engines

Good info on the TBO there. (there are a couple small threads on that forum archive page, good reads the both of them)

Note that the BMW 003's much better service life is partially due to better fuel flow regulation, resulting in less wear durring spool-ups. (when the greatest wear takes place; hence why 004B's passed 100 hour tests at full power)

kool kitty89 · Sep 18, 2008

There was also a recent discussion on the 004's reliabillity here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/av...tacks-if-ussr-had-been-defeated-14427-11.html

SoD Stitch · Sep 18, 2008

Matt308 said:
However, what I fail to find in the deliberations is the impact of the Swallow's Jumo turbine mean time between overhaul (MTBO) impact to 262 operations. My understanding is that the hot section of the turbine was severely limiting the MTBO to about 20hrs and this, along with maintenance training in the field, was causing a severe shortage, thus severely crippling 262 operations.

IIRC, the hot section of the turbine (and the combustion chamber, also) consisted of a baked-on aluminum coating over a steel casing; needless to say, the aluminized coating didn't last very long.

Soundbreaker Welch? · Sep 18, 2008

Jg 7 was really good. 500 kills from the 262.

I wonder if the FW 190 was able to damage a bomber quicker than the 262 or if the high speed of the 262 actually helped it kill more bombers (Even though you have less time to shoot.)

Juha · Sep 18, 2008

Hello Erich

found the calculation on Me 262 pilots' claim but it was in Foreman/Harvey Me 262 war diary, my memory made a trick.

I gave a short look on Price's latest article in World Air Power Review No 23 and it seems that he gives no kill/loss ratio in it. IMHO 250-320 Me 262 kills are entirely possible.

Juha

Njaco · Sep 18, 2008

Thanks Kool. I knew it was discussed I just couldn't remember if it discussed the fixes.

And IIRC, those JG 7 kills may have also included kills from Kmdo Notowny and others. I've gone through Tony Wood's list and cross-checked with other authors. While credit is given on one date for a unit, another unit is given credit on the same date and time. As with anything during that time, its confusing.

Erich · Sep 18, 2008

a couple of things

first I would not believe most of the text written by any osprey author even if you paid me, that also includes their camo, and markings of LW A/C.

second because of the rates of closure and the 3 machine attacks by the Me 262 units one may have damaged a bomber severly enough that the pilot thought it would naturally go down and the LW pilot made a claim for destruction while a follow up pilot then finished the job and claimed the kill as his own. this could be very well why the appearance of 500 kills for JG 7 alone, which I think is double the number they actually shot down in combat.

another point of the problem is that not all 262's were given cameras and that again becuase of high speed in battle there was not always time for a fellow wingman of Kamerad to view and witness the destruction of an Allied A/C. In most cases even with the 262's blowing through the rear of a US or RAF bomber formation Allied escorts were present and not any time to form up for another turn around and attack again pass.

Soren · Sep 18, 2008

What I find really disturbing is that many Me-262's took off to intercept with only half a fuel load and sometimes less.

Btw, according to Galland by far the majority of 262's shot down were so while either trying to land or take off, or after having been unknowingly stalked/chased down to sea level and cut off.

Also a lot of rookie Me-262 pilots choose to bail out even when the aircraft was only minorly damaged and could've been brought home.

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