Dunkirk Losses

[stona]

A certain recent film has encouraged some interest in Dunkirk and Operation Dynamo. particularly the role played by the RAF.

I was asked how many German aircraft the RAF shot down during the eight days of the evacuation (May 26 - June 2) and had to confess that I had no idea. I suspect I might not be the only one who has never worked it out
From various sources I have a number for Luftwaffe aircraft shot down, destroyed and damaged by the RAF in the period in question. The total is 125 aircraft. I don't regard this as definitive, others may come up with a slightly different number, but it is certainly close and a good number to start with.

To achieve this the RAF lost 109 of it's own aircraft (56 Hurricanes, 45 Spitfires and 8 Defiants) as well as 68 aircrew killed or PoWs.

Given that this all happened AFTER Dowding's famous letter of 16th May and after the Air Component had been withdrawn to the UK, leaving only some battered Hurricanes, part of the AASF (Advanced Air Striking Force), in France, and after the decision to support the BAFF (British Air Forces in France) from the UK and not send further squadrons to France, it was a considerable effort. In the thirteen days from the time of that decision until the end of Dynamo the RAF lost 149 fighters, equivalent to nine squadrons, which Dowding had just argued would be vital to the defence of the UK mainland. He cannot have been best pleased.

Cheers

Steve

 

[fubar57]

Good choice for a thread Steve. I have the book "Air Battle for Dunkirk: 26 May - 3 June 1940" by Norman Franks, dated 1983. I have no clue how accurate books are, I leave this to you guys. This is what given in the book, but going by it's age I'm sure major corrections have been done since then...

 

[stona]

Bear in mind that Park's report of 8th July the Luftwaffe losses were necessarily based on RAF claims, and we all know how dubious those numbers have proved to be. He obviously didn't have access to Luftwaffe reports

For example, in the period immediately preceding 'Dynamo', between 21st and 25th May, when Park (including the 20th) reckoned 93 enemy aircraft were destroyed and 49 damaged, RAF pilots made 182 claims.
Actual German lost and damaged, as far as I can work out, were 53. Park was always circumspect of pilots' claims, and his number is actually quite good for the time.

Cheers

Steve

 

[fubar57]

The book also includes 2 pages of Luftwaffe day to day claims: eg...31 May, I/Jg.20 among other aircraft claimed 2 Skuas from FAA 801sqn.

 

[stona]

I can't find them, though Skuas under Coastal Command certainly patrolled the line North Goodwins-Gravelines-Ostend during the day. 801 may have been one of the squadrons involved, but I haven't checked.

Edit: You are correct, 2 Skuas (L2917 and L3005) were shot down returning from an attack on pontoon bridges over the Nieuport Canal. The Germans probably didn't claim them as Skuas though, they would hardly have been expecting them, or been familiar with the type.
A third Skua was also lost later that day over Dunkirk.

Cheers

Steve

 

[fubar57]

Thanks Steve, that was the reason I posted those claims. If you could find the Skuas (s/n included in the book as well) then I can confirm there is some veracity in this book

 

[Airframes]

Aviation publisher 'Wing Leader' have now released their 'Dunkirk' book.
In the same style as their 'Luftwaffe Crash Archive', and 'Battle of Britain Combat Archive', the book's 192 pages cover every RAF patrol and action from 21st May to 2nd June, with claims and losses, combat reports, 'stills' from actual gun camera footage, and many rare photos, along with colour illustrations and profiles, and a situation map for each day.

 

[stona]

They were definitely shot down by Bf 109s of I./JG 20. There are various claims that could be for the Skuas, though I have them as either Hurricanes or Spitfires. This is not as far fetched as it might seem, just look how many Ju 87s were identified as Bf 109s, or Do 17s as Bf 110s, not to mention all those He 113s that RAF pilots saw

The one book I don't have to hand, but will hopefully have back in the near future, is 'The Battle of France Then and Now' by Peter Cornwell. It will have some good information which I haven't noted and can't remember!

Cheers

Steve

 

[Greyman]

The one book I don't have to hand, but will hopefully have back in the near future, is 'The Battle of France Then and Now' by Peter Cornwell. It will have some good information which I haven't noted and can't remember!

The book has:

801 (FAA) Squadron, Detling
Pontoons over Nieuport Canal:

Skua L2917.
Shot down by Bf109s of 3./JG20 after attack on piers and crashed in the Channel west of Nieuport. Believed one of those claimed by Oberlt Lignitz 8:00pm.
Sub Lt J.B. Marsh and Naval Airman G.R. Nicholson missing. Aircraft lost.

Skua L3005.
Shot down by Bf109s of 3./JG20 after attack on piers and crashed in sea off Nieuport. Possibly that claimed by Lt Kolbow 8:10pm.
Lt R.L. Strange and Petty Officr N.R. Reid missing. Aircraft lost.

Skua L2881.
Returned riddled by ground fire and Bf109s of 3./JG20 after attack on piers at Nieuport and possibly that attacked by Uffz Heilmann 8:00 pm.
Sub Lt R.M.S. Martin and Naval Airman R. Hedger wounded. Aircraft damage state not recorded.

 

[RCAFson]

The Royal Navy claimed 35 Luftwaffe aircraft shot down via ship's AA fire.

 

[stona]

The book has:

801 (FAA) Squadron, Detling
Pontoons over Nieuport Canal:

Skua L2917.
Shot down by Bf109s of 3./JG20 after attack on piers and crashed in the Channel west of Nieuport. Believed one of those claimed by Oberlt Lignitz 8:00pm.
Sub Lt J.B. Marsh and Naval Airman G.R. Nicholson missing. Aircraft lost.

Skua L3005.
Shot down by Bf109s of 3./JG20 after attack on piers and crashed in sea off Nieuport. Possibly that claimed by Lt Kolbow 8:10pm.
Lt R.L. Strange and Petty Officr N.R. Reid missing. Aircraft lost.

.

That's great, thanks.
Along with Kolbow's claim (not sure what for, he is credited with the Skua in later sources) Arnold Lignitz (Staffelkapitan of 3./JG 20 ) claimed two Spitfires at 20.00 and 20.10, Karl Heilmann claimed a Spitfire at 20.00 and Artur Dau a Hurricane at 20.15, all in the right area and at the right time. The Skuas must be the victims of these claims..
Cheers
Steve

 

[Greyman]

Hurricanes from 242 Squadron were involved in the fight, one being shot down at 2015 hrs.

One 109 from I./JG20 and two 109s from 3./JG20 were shot down during the engagement.

 

[stona]

One 109 from I./JG20 and two 109s from 3./JG20 were shot down during the engagement.

Oblt. Christel Borries, Stab I./JG 20. Killed
Uffz. Werner Frank, 3./JG 20. Killed
Lt. Hans Kolbow, 3./JG 20. Landed near Calais. Safe.

242 Squadron lost one Hurricane P2732, P/O GM Stewart listed as 'failed to return' in the ORB. We know he was killed AIR81/720 notes
"Pilot Officer G M Stewart: missing presumed dead; Hurricane P2732 in air operations over Dunkirk, France, 31 May 1940"

Cheers

Steve

 

[fubar57]

Good stuff gentlemen

 

[stona]

I finally managed to retrieve my copy of 'BoF Then and Now' and Cornwell has the total Luftwaffe losses to all causes for the period I covered (the days and nights of Dynamo) as about 200. This seems to tally reasonably with the 125 or so which I reckon were directly due to RAF action. The RAF weren't the only ones shooting the Luftwaffe down, I might make a list of French claims when I have time.
Cheers
Steve

 

[stona]

I The RAF weren't the only ones shooting the Luftwaffe down, I might make a list of French claims when I have time.
Cheers
Steve

I make that number somewhere between 35 and 40 during Dynamo (26th May- 2nd June).

Cheers

Steve

 

[gomwolf]

In "Strategy for Defeat" by Williamson Murray.

Over Dunkirk, the Luftwaffe suffered its first serious rebuff of the war. As Galland has noted, the nature and style of the air battles over the beaches should have provided a warning as to the inherent weaknesses of the Luftwaffe's force structure. Admittedly, the Germans fought at a disadvantage. Although positioned forward at captured airfields, the Bf 109 was at the outer limits of its range and possessed less flying time over Dunkirk than did the "Hurricanes" and "Spitfires" operating from southern England. German bombers were still located in western Germany and had even farther to fly. Thus, the Luftwaffe could not bring its full weight to bear so that when its bombers hammered those on the beaches or embarking, the RAF intervened in a significant fashion. German aircraft losses were high, and British fighter attacks often prevented German bombers from performing with full effectiveness. Both sides suffered heavy losses. During the nine days from May 26 through June 3, the RAF lost 177 aircraft destroyed or damaged; the Germans lost 240. For much of the Luftwaffe, Dunkirk came as a nasty shock. Fliegerkorps II reported in its war diary that it lost more aircraft on the 27th attacking the evacuation than it had lost in the previous ten days of the campaign.



In this source, Luftwaffe loss 240 A/C, but it is not actual dunkirk losses. This figure came from "The War in France and Flanders" by John Ellis. It is total losses in those period. However, Luftwaffe's effort in this period were concentrated on Dunkirk, so IMHO, it is quite close with actual losses.

 

[stona]

I have the book "Air Battle for Dunkirk: 26 May - 3 June 1940" by Norman Franks, dated 1983.

I've just found a copy of that book, which I had forgotten I had! It was mixed up with a lot of stuff about Sealion. Mine is a 2000 edition, but I doubt that it is much different from the original 1983 edition. I've just had a quick flick through, and whilst it might not be very helpful from a purely statistical point of view it does have a lot of first hand accounts of operations and gives a pretty good overview of the effort made by Fighter Command to protect the evacuations.
I don't know if it is still available, but if at a reasonable price it would still be worth a read.
Cheers
Steve