Engine choices for P-51 mustang ?

[gruad]

Nice to know that you consider the rest of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland was safe from Hitler's predations!

The first German air raid on Britain on 16 Oct 1939 targeted RN ships in the Firth of Forth. Spitfires from 602 (City of Glasgow) and 603 (City of Edinburgh squadrons, based at Drem & Turnhouse respectively, were scrambled and succeeded in bringing down 2 German aircraft.

Rolls Royce had a shadow factory at Hillington, on the outskirts of Glasgow (in Scotland) from 1937, it completed its first Merlin engine about two weeks before the outbreak of WW2. It went on to produce about 14% of all Merlins produced worldwide as well as Griffons.

Yes, let's not forget the 1707'ers and the Welsh and NI for their great contribution to the war.

Churchill new the Nazis could never invade the UK because even if they got past the RAF they were still the RN to deal with

 

[pbehn]

Yes, let's not forget the 1707'ers and the Welsh and NI for their great contribution to the war.

Churchill new the Nazis could never invade the UK because even if they got past the RAF they were still the RN to deal with

Can you please give the kingdom of Northumbria its rightful place in history. By 1940 the UK and its commonwealth was the name of the state and it gives respect to Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland for their contribution and Canada Australia New Zealand and many others. With respect, posting "NI" doesnt show any respect at all for the people of Northern Ireland.

 

[gruad]

Can you please give the kingdom of Northumbria its rightful place in history. By 1940 the UK and its commonwealth was the name of the state and it gives respect to Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland for their contribution and Canada Australia New Zealand and many others. With respect, posting "NI" doesnt show any respect at all for the people of Northern Ireland.

Wow, are we still the UK and its Commonwealth?

How does the Northumbria thing work?

Apologies to Northern Irelanders on the forum. I do mean to visit one day...

 

[pbehn]

Wow, are we still the UK and its Commonwealth?

How does the Northumbria thing work?

Apologies to Northern Irelanders on the forum. I do mean to visit one day...

I worked all over Scotland (Glasgow, Motherwell Leith Tain Wick) and worked with Scots all over the world, I never met one 1707 er. Look at a map of Europe in 1707 and you will find the "Northumbria thing" works just as sensibly as the "1707 er" thing does.

 

[gruad]

I worked all over Scotland (Glasgow, Motherwell Leith Tain Wick) and worked with Scots all over the world, I never met one 1707 er. Look at a map of Europe in 1707 and you will find the "Northumbria thing" works just as sensibly as the "1707 er" thing does.

Lol me too used to commute to Edinburgh and had a Scottish girlfriend.

You'll have to explain the 1707 Northumbria thing to me as all I can find is this.


The two countries had shared a monarch since the Union of the Crowns in 1603, when King James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne from his double first cousin twice removed, Queen Elizabeth I. Although described as a Union of Crowns, and in spite of James's acknowledgement of his accession to a single Crown,[3] England and Scotland were officially separate Kingdoms until 1707 (as opposed to the implied creation of a single unified Kingdom, exemplified by the later Kingdom of Great Britain). Prior to the Acts of Union, there had been three previous attempts (in 1606, 1667, and 1689) to unite the two countries by Acts of Parliament, but it was not until the early 18th century that both political establishments came to support the idea, albeit for different reasons.

The Acts took effect on 1 May 1707. On this date, the Scottish Parliament and the English Parliament united to form the Parliament of Great Britain, based in the Palace of Westminster in London, the previous home of the English Parliament.[4] This specific process is sometimes referred to as the "union of the Parliaments" in Scotland.[5]

 

[pbehn]

Lol me too used to commute to Edinburgh and had a Scottish girlfriend.

You'll have to explain the 1707 Northumbria thing to me as all I can find is this.


The two countries had shared a monarch since the Union of the Crowns in 1603, when King James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne from his double first cousin twice removed, Queen Elizabeth I. Although described as a Union of Crowns, and in spite of James's acknowledgement of his accession to a single Crown,[3] England and Scotland were officially separate Kingdoms until 1707 (as opposed to the implied creation of a single unified Kingdom, exemplified by the later Kingdom of Great Britain). Prior to the Acts of Union, there had been three previous attempts (in 1606, 1667, and 1689) to unite the two countries by Acts of Parliament, but it was not until the early 18th century that both political establishments came to support the idea, albeit for different reasons.

The Acts took effect on 1 May 1707. On this date, the Scottish Parliament and the English Parliament united to form the Parliament of Great Britain, based in the Palace of Westminster in London, the previous home of the English Parliament.[4] This specific process is sometimes referred to as the "union of the Parliaments" in Scotland.[5]

So what is a 1707 er and what has it got to do with Merlin production in WW2?

 

[GrauGeist]

As a descendant of the highland Clan MacBean and Royal Stewart line, we don't recognize this 1707 you speak of.

Now, about that Merlin/V-1650...

 

[PAT303]

Because the 37 litre V12 engine which actually flew in WW2 was derived from a much earlier design of the same bore and stroke which lay dormant at RR dating from just after the Schneider Trophy days, which WAS called "Griffin"

The two names were often mixed up ever-after.

View attachment 745295

Off topic, how many of you have noticed the wording of letters such as this are totally different to what we use today, ''so I may satisfy myself" instead of I want to see for myself if it works, I like the different language used. Back on topic, the best engine for the P51 were the ones it was fitted with, first the Allison, then the Merlin, end of story.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

I did get drgondog and Lowell Ford's book on the develop of the Merlin Mustang, and they did feature a couple of P-51 design the studies, one with a R-R Griffon, and the other of the Allison V-1710-45. Both didn't evolve any further than those studies, as the Griffon was overall larger and the -45 Allison was too long vs even the two-stage Merlin to fit without fairly significant modification of the design. Namely for the Allison, it would've taken moving the engine forward at least 2 inches forward, or the firewall (and maybe the cockpit) 2 inches back due to the length of the supercharger.

That said, the Merlin, though it "fit" OK, it required ballast to be tinkered with due to the two stage Merlin weighing 350 lbs more than a single stage Merlin or Allison, and the 4 bladed prop also required some tinkering with ballast to maintain CG and trim. Not to mention that the increased power of the Merlin and prop vortex cause a direction stability issue that wasn't fully fixed until the P-51H had a lengthened rear fuselage (also due to dealing with the H's additional 50 gallon fuselage tank) and a taller tail unit. The taller tail was also fitted to some P-51Ds, though I don't know how the D faired with the taller tail.

 

[Shortround6]

Not sure where the 2in dimension is coming from. Moving the fire wall is not always directedly connected with engine length.

This is similar to the -45 engine, this is an E series engine for the P-63 and the gear box was mounted in the nose. The -45 engine only had 2 built, one with an intercooler and one without. They had the carbs mounted on the intake of the Aux supercharger as shown above. Some other 2 stage Allisons had the carb mounted on the intake of the engine supercharger and and rather curved duct connecting the Aux supercharger to the carb.
The engine was considerably longer than the Merlin, The weight is given as 1545lbs but I don't know if that is for the intercooled engine or not.
The longer engine can be mounted further forward than the Merlin for the same center of gravity which might require only a small change in firewall location. However you do need a much longer cowl.
A photo of the V-1710-101 is on page 273 of "Vees for Victory" and the -101 engine is the next F series (normal gear box ) after the -45. They built 3 and modified several of them into later versions for the P-40Q.
The main problem with the -45 is simply that it wasn't very good. 1150hp at 21,000ft was not a very good return on a two stage engine. Making the same power as the V-1650-1 Merlin (P40F) 2500ft higher wasn't enough to compensate for the added weight/cost/complication. It was also late. Allison was running test/development on the -101 engine (and -93 King Cobra engine) in the summer of 1943 when the P-51B/C was in full production.

TANSTAAFL.

You want to use a longer nose you need a longer tail for aerodynamic reasons. Extra fuselage area forward of the CG needs more fuselage/tail area aft.
If you use a higher powered engine, of whatever make, you need to compensate for the increase prop swirl. You also need a larger prop or you don't get all the benefit of the extra power.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

The Exe was named for a river, while the Pennine was named for a mountain range.

A development of the Pennine was to be called the Snowdon.

So maybe air-cooled military engines were to be named for rivers, air-cooled engines for civilian use for British mountains?

The Crecy, a 2-stroke, was named after an historic battle.

Liquid-cooled 4-strokes were named after birds of prey.

I believe the naming of the Exe was inspired by the engines physical layout.

 

[Shortround6]

I believe the naming of the Exe was inspired by the engines physical layout.

Hard to say which came first. It was an "X" engine but they could hardly call it the "X" because there were a lot of other X configuration engines around. Now coming up with word (noun) that sounded like "X" or started with X may have been a challenge to people who are not familiar with cross word puzzles.

A similar puzzle is presented by the Curtiss XP-55

Was it's name "Ascender" inspired by it's flight performance (hoped for) or by it's appearance, ass-ender or ass-backwards, and cleaned up for public consumption ?

 

[yulzari]

As a descendant of the highland Clan MacBean and Royal Stewart line, we don't recognize this 1707 you speak

Your Parliament voted for it you know.

 

[yulzari]

Yes, let's not forget the 1707'ers and the Welsh and NI for their great contribution to the war.

error

 

[GTX]

Yeah, it does. It's the Rolls-Royce Flying Test Bed, powered by a mid-ships mounted Griffon engine. A mock-up was built at Hucknall using bits from surplus Mustang I airframes, but the project was cancelled in February 1945.

Speaking of the FTB mock-up:

 

[GTX]

Could a gas turbine have been fitted to the Mustang?

This was supposedly a proposal that North American had come up with in case the war had continued. As you can see, it had forward swept wings as well as a Westinghouse jet engine in the rear fuselage and a tricycle undercarriage.

 

[pbehn]

Speaking of the FTB mock-up:

View attachment 763057
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It looks like a P-39.

 

[Shortround6]

This was supposedly a proposal that North American had come up with in case the war had continued. As you can see, it had forward swept wings as well as a Westinghouse jet engine in the rear fuselage and a tricycle undercarriage.

View attachment 763061

Well, in paper fighter poker I see your Luft 46 whozit's with a North American whatzit!

 

[special ed]

It looks like a P-39.

Wash out your mouth! My first thought when I saw it, was don't call "P-39 expert".
Was there nose armor, where was the cabin heater, where is the radio?
There! All done. Move on. Nothing to see here.

 

[GTX]

Well, in paper fighter poker I see your Luft 46 whozit's with a North American whatzit!

Well while in the spirit…