My head just exploded.
Erich Hartmann and his victories and overclaims over Hungary
- Thread starter CHen10
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Ouch maybe change subject here?
Don't worry my friend. I'm moving on…
fubar57
General
In the sticks we called that, pulling a Hank Snow
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
By this logic, a pilot cannot claim a victory if the enemy pilot survives.
Because he can climb into another aircraft and go back into battle.
In a broader sense, the USN lost the Battle of Midway because it failed to sink all of the Japanese ships, then.
In aerial combat, if you force your opponent to disengage by way of destroying or damaging their aircraft, it is considered a victory.
In tank warfare, if you destroy or damage an opponent's tank to the point of being abandoned (even if it's repairable), it is considered a victory.
In Naval warfare, if you sink or damage an enemy's ship to the point where it retires or is abandoned, it is considered a victory.
The point of these victories, is to secure your immediate area of operation and to deny the enemy to continue the fight.
If a plane (or tank or ship) can be repaired and put back into service at a later date is of no consequence to the military.
They do not take the time to worry about what-ifs and maybes, all they are concerned about, is whether or not the enemy was removed from action and no longer a threat during that particular operation.
I hope the Soviet pilots never claimed to have shot down Hartmann as he crash landed multiple times due to aircraft damage.
I believe US fighters chased Hartmann for some time so he was about to run out of fuel and chose to bail out. Was that claimed as kill?
I believe US fighters chased Hartmann for some time so he was about to run out of fuel and chose to bail out. Was that claimed as kill?
GregP
Major
You know, I used to think Der Adler was pretty touchy and easy to "get going." Now it sort of seems like he has the patience of a saint.
All Hail Saint Der Adler!
We are certainly in the presence of an "enthusiast" about this topic. Funny how one enthusiast can change the perception of someone quicker than you can make orange drink from Tang and water. It happened so quickly, it could almost be called "premature."
Enthusiast can also be a politically-correct term for fanatic, but it doesn't HAVE to be. Your mileage may vary in this regard. It depends on whether or not complete destruction has been achieved without enjoying said destruction. It can also be affected by phases of the moon and pixie dust.
I hope CHen10 wasn't in the group that helped with the reduction of Pappy Boyington's score. If so, I'm gonna' have to be on the other side.
For me, let's understand the war, it's causes, effects, and it's machines, and refrain from revisionism with regard to what was accomplished during the war. The data set down by the people who were there is good enough from the perspective of those that were there. I tend to believe their perception is all that mattered at that time. There is already enough disparity between data from the two sides without adding more.
All Hail Saint Der Adler!
We are certainly in the presence of an "enthusiast" about this topic. Funny how one enthusiast can change the perception of someone quicker than you can make orange drink from Tang and water. It happened so quickly, it could almost be called "premature."
Enthusiast can also be a politically-correct term for fanatic, but it doesn't HAVE to be. Your mileage may vary in this regard. It depends on whether or not complete destruction has been achieved without enjoying said destruction. It can also be affected by phases of the moon and pixie dust.
I hope CHen10 wasn't in the group that helped with the reduction of Pappy Boyington's score. If so, I'm gonna' have to be on the other side.
For me, let's understand the war, it's causes, effects, and it's machines, and refrain from revisionism with regard to what was accomplished during the war. The data set down by the people who were there is good enough from the perspective of those that were there. I tend to believe their perception is all that mattered at that time. There is already enough disparity between data from the two sides without adding more.
Yes, you would be awarded a kill.What you have is an opinion which unfortunately for you does not mean much when it comes to air combat.
What I believe is fact. If an aircraft is shot down, its a kill, and that is also how the people who actually have a dog in the fight (fighter pilots) believe as well.
In fact, lets ask an actual fighter pilot.BiffF15 , if you were to shoot down another aircraft, but it was eventually repaired and put back into service, would you be awarded a kill?
This thread is bordering on madness. And I'm only on page 8 as I write this. It's beyond Ground Hog part 3.
CHen10,
I have been in exercises where the kills, friendly losses, battle damage, personel losses, weapons expenditures were all mis-tracked. As a matter of fact we were graded on how we did the mundane tracking of this and more. And you think the that any military force, in a literal battle for survival, is going to get all its facts straight? And you want us to rely on your opinion having read someone else's opinion? How many times have you risked your life in combat? Been shot at? Feared for your life or that of your fellow soldier?
Your willingness to pass judgment so handily on those who walked the floor of the arena is truly mind boggling. I ask that you take a minute to reflect on what these gentlemen are so desperately trying to explain to you. You are way off base here.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
Paris, France
23 April 1910
Biff out
I think Adler is misunderstood by many on the forum. He's actually well balanced and easy going. And a very valuable member of the forum team and has been for many years.
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I have two kids I have to deal with every day now. It makes it easier to deal with all you kids in the forum.
Thank you my friend.
I will admit. I am human like everyone here. I have good days and I have bad days, like everyone. As I get older, I try to remember that everyone else here is human too, and has the same.
Mate there's people claiming that the RN didn't sink the Bismarck because the sea cocks were opened before the crew abandoned her.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
That may be so, but had it not been for the Stringbags jamming her rudder, she would have been a dangerous adversary for the RN's taskforce to contend with and most likely inflicted serious damage to the RN elements closing in.
So with the damage indicted by the Swordfish and the Royal Navy closing for the kill, the Bismark was scuttled.
Thus it was a victory in favor of the British.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Fornication affirmative.
oh that exact thing has been argued in this forum before !
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I posited on another forum regarding Bismarck that "if you force your enemy to scuttle, you have in fact sunk her, just as if you have put her down yourself."
Maybe Rodney and KGV should've taken Winnie's advice and kept shooting until they were out of fuel? Yeah, no. There's not many armchairs on battleships, or fighter-planes.
- Thread starter
- #238
I understand what they're trying to say. However, my opinion is not going to change on this subject. Many people including myself have already closed the case when it comes to Hartmann and we have already made our minds up. I haven't researched Hartmann that much but other people have and I've seen their analysis in detail, which results in his victory tally being far less than 352. I'd give him 190 at the very most.
I've never criticised Hartmann personally. I have only praised him. I have repeatedly said he was an excellent pilot and humble as well. I am just simply saying his score is far less than 352.
This is my final post on the matter.
You say 352.
I say at most 190.
Let's leave it at that
Holtzauge
Airman
- Thread starter
- #240
Since this is an interesting question I will answer it, but this is an exception, and this is my final post on this subject.
If someone shoots down an aircraft over their own territory and their own forces repair the aircraft to test fly it or whatever, then I would count this as a victory.
This is because the aircraft is no longer in the enemy's inventory. No longer being in your inventory means it has the same fate as an aircraft being scrapped. Soviet archives also account for this since they say if an aircraft crashed in German or enemy territory.
But yeah, a very good question
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