GregP
Major
You must be crazy! We are NOT having an argument, and I am unanimous in that, as quoted by Mrs. Slocum on many occasions!
Erich Hartmann and his victories and overclaims over Hungary
- Thread starter CHen10
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Snautzer01
Marshal
- 46,292
- Mar 26, 2007
Worthless without a picture
You are contradicting yourself. I'm sorry but you make zero sense.
How is it not a victory? If a pilot shoots down another aircraft it was a victory.
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- #144
It's not a victory because the aircraft was repaired.
If the pilot lands at base with a damaged aircraft and it gets repaired I don't count that.
I don't know why it's so hard to understand my view
What you have is an opinion which unfortunately for you does not mean much when it comes to air combat.
What I believe is fact. If an aircraft is shot down, its a kill, and that is also how the people who actually have a dog in the fight (fighter pilots) believe as well.
In fact, lets ask an actual fighter pilot.
BiffF15 , if you were to shoot down another aircraft, but it was eventually repaired and put back into service, would you be awarded a kill?
And how is the victorious pilot supposed to know it was repaired? Which does not matter anyhow.
I understand your point of view. I'm telling you its ridiculous.
This is one hundred percent Groundhog thread part Deux.
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- #148
The SBD with Harold Jones (I think that's his name) was credited an A6M and he said he saw the Japanese pilot of the A6M get hit in the head and jump in his seat from the impact of the bullet. This matches what happened to Sakai who was hit in the eye. John Lundstrom wrote a book where he provides evidence that Jones was credited with an A6M. Sakaida talks about Jones seeing the pilot get hit in the head.
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- #149
You said my point of view makes no sense because I contradict myself. If it makes no sense how do you understand it?
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- #150
Lipfert usually watched happened to his victim to make sure it crashed beyond repair. His accuracy over Hungary using my rules gives him over 90% accuracy. He usually had no problem working out if the aircraft would be repaired
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- #151
Barkhorn also had a good idea if the aircraft would be repaired or not since using my definition he got 80% accuracy over Hungary
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- #152
Unrelated to this, but do you know how to access USAAF combat reports? I'm trying to find the 318th Fighter Group's combat report for 28 May 1945. I want to see if a certain P-47 was written off after receiving damage from a Shiden Kai
What, did he fly by the other sides base for coffee and cake and ask if it was repaired? Did he make a friendly phone call?
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
In the context of days battle, yes. Sakai Saburo returned to combat eventually out of the IJNAF's desperate need for pilots. Any pilot. A one eyed pilot, no matter how skilled, isn't usually cleared for front line operations. His plane was removed from combat that day.
No, I'm saying you make no sense, and thst you contradict yourself.
GregP
Major
I think this is rather easily settled by saying we are all glad you, CHen10, are not sitting on our review board when we submit for a victory credit. It's not Earth-shaking.
I think we ALL get your opinion; it's clear. It's just that no country's military aviation branches anywhere share your opinion of what constitutes a victory credit. Nor does the general opinion in this forum.
The Rolling Stones have a song out that says it clearly, "You Can't Always Get What You Want." But, if you try sometime, you might find, you get what you need.
So, you need to understand that we simply do NOT agree. Why can't YOU understand that? It is easy. You need to find a way to accept that. There will be less confusion and arguments in your life.
It doesn't mean you can't come up with your own victory credit list. It's just that your new list will not match anyone else's list. Perhaps that's OK with you.
I think we ALL get your opinion; it's clear. It's just that no country's military aviation branches anywhere share your opinion of what constitutes a victory credit. Nor does the general opinion in this forum.
The Rolling Stones have a song out that says it clearly, "You Can't Always Get What You Want." But, if you try sometime, you might find, you get what you need.
So, you need to understand that we simply do NOT agree. Why can't YOU understand that? It is easy. You need to find a way to accept that. There will be less confusion and arguments in your life.
It doesn't mean you can't come up with your own victory credit list. It's just that your new list will not match anyone else's list. Perhaps that's OK with you.
fubar57
General
Accident Republic P-47N Thunderbolt 44-87978, Monday 28 May 1945
Crashed on takeoff.
aviation-safety.net
Four lost on the 28th, only one in the Pacific
Have you actually been in combat? Do you think you have the time often to turn your back on other enemy so you can watch?
Thats still regardless though. Even if he watched the plane belly into the ground, it still could have been retrieved and repaired weeks later. How would he know that?
Your opinion does not hold up.
Your opinion aka definition means nothing. A kill is scored when an aircraft is shot down. Period. How hard is that for you to understand?
Ding, ding, ding…
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