I suspect that he,and many others on both sides,would have kept his head down!
Flugbuchs were 'fudged' at the time as Erich says. Some have been blatantly altered or even forged since the war.
Steve
Erich Hartmann - how did his comrades regard him?
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I suspect that he,and many others on both sides,would have kept his head down!
Flugbuchs were 'fudged' at the time as Erich says. Some have been blatantly altered or even forged since the war.
Steve
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Erich,
Absolutely not. I feel it dishonours all aces to dissect and ( by inference) discredit their claims.
But, that is just my opinion.
John
It's not to discredit the men themselves. It's an effort to establish what really happened. Noone is accusing any of these men of being dishonest (with a few proveable exceptions).
Claims are not a valid way of assessing losses. They weren't at the time and they certainly aren't now. There is an important distinction between the two which seems to be lost on some people.
Cheers
Steve
Claims are not a valid way of assessing losses. They weren't at the time and they certainly aren't now. There is an important distinction between the two which seems to be lost on some people.
Cheers
Steve
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Agreed but, a true 'ace' is more than just a list of figures. There are qualities like leadership, charisma, being at the right place at the right time,luck, markmanship and most importantly being a gentleman.
I'll use Stanford Tuck as an example to illustrate my point without derailing the Hartmann thread.
Cheers
John
I'd agree with almost all of that. I'm not sure being a gentleman was obligatory if those other qualities were present.
I like to stick to known facts and figures which is why conjecture and words like 'cheating' are things I avoid. The Luftwaffe system,whilst rigorous,also,by its very nature encouraged 'optimistic' claiming.
I have my own opinion about the claiming of many of these men,on all sides,but it is just that ...opinion,unprovable either way and which I will keep to myself.
Cheers
Steve
drgondog
Major
Erich - what is Ebersberger Forest close to? three of the four 51s that went down to 109s were perhaps in a semi circle from ne to ese of Munich
drgondog
Major
Milosh - where relative to Muhldorf/Waldkraiburg?
Thanks - that correlates roughly to two 355th pilots that went down - at least within 10-15 radius. The 357th FG pilot went down south of Landshut, east of Erding. The other 355th pilot went down west of Munich near Wessling Lake.
Thanks - that correlates roughly to two 355th pilots that went down - at least within 10-15 radius. The 357th FG pilot went down south of Landshut, east of Erding. The other 355th pilot went down west of Munich near Wessling Lake.
drgondog
Major
John - I certainly respect your feelings about questioning credit to awards as a process was usually in place and despite evidence of overstating the claims, there is no way to dissect facts with certainty.
That being said, when I write about something I do try to gather facts, opinions based on facts and state unequivocally when I observe an opinions for which there are no facts.. a little problem of mine but I supoose I will live with it.
Regards,
Bill
That being said, when I write about something I do try to gather facts, opinions based on facts and state unequivocally when I observe an opinions for which there are no facts.. a little problem of mine but I supoose I will live with it.
Regards,
Bill
Erich
the old Sage
there is NO discredit to the aces it is getting to the bottom of their claims within the units history, I am doing a day by day and very thorough re-do of JG 301's history and there are so many blanks that need to be filled. Surley this is a massive undertaking the JG 300 tome just did not take 5 years to accomplish but tons and years of research of course the French authors were able to procure personal first hand interviews of many former pilots of that Reich defenses wing before their passing, this is one of the huge stemming problems I and others face toady they are either gone or too tired to think and memory's have faded.
Bill please go ahead and start up a thread on the April 24, 44 mission maybe we can all chip in with info and get things correct or more confused
well let's hope not.
Bill please go ahead and start up a thread on the April 24, 44 mission maybe we can all chip in with info and get things correct or more confused
well let's hope not.Waldkraiburg is ~62km almost due east of Munich and 69km nw of Salzburg. Landshut is ~42km nnw of Waldkraiburg and ~61km ne of Munich. Erding is ~31km ne of Munich.(Google Earth)
drgondog
Major
Sorry for my brevity earlier - Ebersberger Forest relative to Waldkraiburg?
If Ebersberger Forest is ~20km e of Munich (Google Earth says 25km) and Waldkraiburg is 62km e of Munich, would it not make Ebersberger Forest ~40km west of Waldkraiburg?
drgondog
Major
I didn't see your reference to the forest being 20km east or I would have figured the math out.. lol
Having said that neither Hilman nor Norman were closer to Munich than Waldkraiburg..Donnell from 357FG had a mid air collision with an Me 110 that he shot down about 11 miles east of Munich about 1420, according to MACR 4329/J-935
Having said that neither Hilman nor Norman were closer to Munich than Waldkraiburg..Donnell from 357FG had a mid air collision with an Me 110 that he shot down about 11 miles east of Munich about 1420, according to MACR 4329/J-935
Erich
the old Sage
as I said lets start up another thread for what appears at least what I am getting a vibe for Bill and his future work to get things down solidly for the 355th fg and the LW units facing his Dad's unit. at present it is appearing a very wide area of coverage for this operation . . . .
am noting in my LW claims and losses listing that Bf 110G-2 gruppe III./ZG 26 claimed 6 P-51's .................... ah hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm and they lose 4 110's with 6 more heavily damaged
am noting in my LW claims and losses listing that Bf 110G-2 gruppe III./ZG 26 claimed 6 P-51's .................... ah hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm and they lose 4 110's with 6 more heavily damaged
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Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Agreed Steve, I mention being a gentleman as when you are good you don't have to abrasive or a lout.
Just my opinion
Cheers
John
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
there is NO discredit to the aces it is getting to the bottom of their claims within the units history, I am doing a day by day and very thorough re-do of JG 301's history and there are so many blanks that need to be filled. Surley this is a massive undertaking the JG 300 tome just did not take 5 years to accomplish but tons and years of research of course the French authors were able to procure personal first hand interviews of many former pilots of that Reich defenses wing before their passing, this is one of the huge stemming problems I and others face toady they are either gone or too tired to think and memory's have faded.
Bill please go ahead and start up a thread on the April 24, 44 mission maybe we can all chip in with info and get things correct or more confused
Bill, I'm glad that you are doing all this. I wonder what other information could be uncovered by diligent research concerning other theatres of war?
Cheers
John
We all have our 'oldtimer' moments Bill.
I find Google Earth comes in handy, most times.
Erich
the old Sage
Readie the only way is to post question(s) concerning a certain mission/event ................... and then wait patiently for a response.
as per the 24 April 44 mission my suggestion is to pick up a Deutschland Süd-Ost # 420 from Michelin Reise-Verlag (map) for starts. There are 6 different quadrants that cover all of Germany in 1/300 000 scale, 1cm = 3km if anyone is interested and for me for very serious research...... in the states the AAA travel agencies carry these or can be ordered if you are a member.
my central two maps with Hannover as the corner piece have too many pin holes for crash sites for the 26 November 44 mission over Misburg, the mission was a total wreck for the LW and not much better for the US either.
as per the 24 April 44 mission my suggestion is to pick up a Deutschland Süd-Ost # 420 from Michelin Reise-Verlag (map) for starts. There are 6 different quadrants that cover all of Germany in 1/300 000 scale, 1cm = 3km if anyone is interested and for me for very serious research...... in the states the AAA travel agencies carry these or can be ordered if you are a member.
my central two maps with Hannover as the corner piece have too many pin holes for crash sites for the 26 November 44 mission over Misburg, the mission was a total wreck for the LW and not much better for the US either.
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Erich
the old Sage
one more very concise source is Euro Atlas 1: 300.000 scale, cities directory in the back obvious due to size details does not list every village in Deutschland. produced by American map. I picked up my copy back in 1999. personally you can't do any serious observational research without these ............
