Erich Hartmann - how did his comrades regard him?

[Readie]

what this thread shows is how unreliable individual and unit claims are, it was gross overclaiming and the lack of realistic intelligence to back it up that caused the Luftwaffe to believe they had attrited the RAF enough to shift thier focus away from fighter command airfields in the BOB, and it happened on both sides during the war, the only true judge of an air forces performance in a campaign is the end result!

I'm inclined to agree with you.
I have read all the learned posts filled with statstics about who claimed what and when.
There can be no doubt that Hartmann was an ace, as I have said before, arguing over claims that can never be truly confirmed does seem to demean him.
Just a thougth
Cheers
John

 

[drgondog]

I went to 'all LW West claim list and found the 13 claims for JG 27. Seven at Kalamaki between Bartels and Hackl. How close is Kalamaki to Thebes where the one P-38 Crash and recorded loss occurred?

So, McClure hit by flak near Athens and crashed at Thebes 37 miles away - Where is Kalamaki relative to a straight line between Thebes and Athens? This particular P-38F seems to have been shot down approximately 13 times around 1115-1125.

Two 82FG victory credits (Moffit and Brown) 96FS, were awarded by USAF Study 85.. for 15 November, 1943 - all other scores were in SWP PTO, no more in MTO and none in ETO.

the 82nd FG lost 95FS Keller to a non combat related accident on 15 November. no more incidents/losses.

Ratsel - if you still hold to the opinion that JG27 had a big battle with P-38s on 15 November, in which they not only claimed - but were awarded 13 P-38s shot down - and the USAAF has one flying accident at the base on take off (82nd FG) and one hit by flak and down within 10minute/37 miles from the hit at 1115 to 1125 (1st FG), where are you locating non recorded losses for USAAF, in non existant air battle around Athens, or in the area of the 82nd Fg which claimed two 109s?

In other words why do you believe Bartel and Hackl - who claimed 7 together- more than half of the LW total, more than 7 times the actual losses (1) incurred by MTO P-38s in combat (and that is questionable unless Kalamaki is between Athens and Thebes and Bartels caught the cripple?).

 

[jim]

So, McClure hit by flak near Athens and crashed at Thebes 37 miles away - Where is Kalamaki relative to a straight line between Thebes and Athens? This particular P-38F seems to have been shot down approximately 13 times around 1115-1125.

Two 82FG victory credits (Moffit and Brown) 96FS, were awarded by USAF Study 85.. for 15 November, 1943 - all other scores were in SWP PTO, no more in MTO and none in ETO.

the 82nd FG lost 95FS Keller to a non combat related accident on 15 November. no more incidents/losses.

Kalamaki is a south suburb of Athens ~10 km from the Akropolis . Back then it was a village ,today is part of Athens.

 

[Ratsel]

Ratsel - if you still hold to the opinion that JG27 had a big battle with P-38s on 15 November, in which they not only claimed - but were awarded 13 P-38s shot down - and the USAAF has one flying accident at the base on take off (82nd FG) and one hit by flak and down within 10minute/37 miles from the hit at 1115 to 1125 (1st FG), where are you locating non recorded losses for USAAF, in non existant air battle around Athens, or in the area of the 82nd Fg which claimed two 109s?

In other words why do you believe Bartel and Hackl - who claimed 7 together- more than half of the LW total, more than 7 times the actual losses (1) incurred by MTO P-38s in combat (and that is questionable unless Kalamaki is between Athens and Thebes and Bartels caught the cripple?).

From Kalamaki to Thebes is exactly 60km as the crow flies. Bartels would have no problem catching that P-38 along that route. Especially one that may be experiancing problems. Most Fighters either took that route past the southern tip of Kerkyra to head to or back from Italy. Hackl I couldn't concern myself with.

 

[Kryten]

yet you "concern" yourself with a man who claims 4 P38's shot down when the only loss is a single aircraft hit by flak, which there is zero evidence that any enemy aircraft engaged?
no offence but that does seem to be hero worshiping a guy whos credibility is stretched past breaking point in this matter?

lets be blunt, the sytem was played by all sides in all theaters in all branches of the military, "successfull" units got prefferential treatment, if you have ever been in the military you would know military beauracracy is always manipulated to get around the system!
It seems to me Luftwaffe units were as guilty as anyone else for making bogus claims if it made thier lives more comfortable or easier, and when it comes to being involved in a war, I have no doubt I would do it as well!

 

[Ratsel]

well its not hero worshipping.. thats for sure. Equally there isn't any evidence that it wasn't shot down along that route also. Yes, I know all sides were guilty of overclaiming, I'm not disputing that. Strange though on the day before Bartels was killed, that he refused to take leave that day in pursuit of his 100th kill. Dosn't sound like a guy how would make stories up.

 

[drgondog]

Ratsel - I am not saying that he was a notorious overclaimer. I will NEVER question his courage or skill.

I just note that research into actual losses of the 20+ big air battles I have researched show that LW victory credits usually run about 2:1 including a/c that got back and were Class 5/Cat E battle damage or limp off's to Sweden/Switzerland.

This deal on 15 November does seem to be a major contrast between award system and losses however, and Hackl seems to be part of the picture also.

 

[drgondog]

Kalamaki is a south suburb of Athens ~10 km from the Akropolis . Back then it was a village ,today is part of Athens.

Jim - that would easily imply that McClure was caught while straggling behind and shot down by either Hackl or Bartels for one of their combined seven credits in that area... but getting hit over Kalimaki to the south of Athens then crashing 30 miles to the west is interesting..

 

[Erich]

I will confirm what the guys have said already, Bill and I have done enough together to try and straighten the LW nightmare of claiming out, still in process that is all I can say. Try going through very limited ZG records if you can find any and attribute their claims to actual B-24 and B-17 losses.

Back to the Tony Woods listing of claims and that is exactly what they are not confirmations, more and more I am saying to myself . . . . Huh ?, who is this guy not listed in the LW KTB of that particular unit history.

example: just looking at JG 301 kill claims for 21 November, the only one correct possibly out of 5 pilots listed in the Freiburg lists is one who claimed 2 P-51's of which he may not have even done that as CO of JG 301. 2 of the other pilots are real guys who scored kills in the early spring of 1944.

 

[Ratsel]

but getting hit over Kalimaki to the south of Athens then crashing 30 miles to the west is interesting..

Well its not actually Kalamaki, its the old Ellinikon Airport (this would be JG 27 base), a little south of Kalamaki. Thebes would then be 62km NorthWest of the airport. Most likely was that Bartels was already airborn and in the vacinity of Kalamaki. Or maybe just off shore to the west of Ellinikon. Depending on the route of the -24s and -38s.

 

[Ratsel]

Some other JG 27 bases of note on the Greek mainland: Larissa (590km N. of Kalamaki), Tanagra (50km N. of Kalamaki), Eleusis (20km NW of Kalamaki), Ptolemais (600km n. of Kalamaki). One dosn't here about these bases mentioned to often.

 

[Njaco]

Jagdgeschwader 27

 

[stona]

I was reading a thread elsewhere about the Bf110. In it John Vasco,who knows as much as anyone about the type and whose books I possess,and would recommend to anyone made a comment about claims which exactly sums up my own attitude. I hope he won't mind me posting it here.

'The problem I have with claims, you see, is that in studying them, many times they are totally wide of the mark.'

Well said John!

Cheers
Steve

 

[Ratsel]

Well, I see theres no middle ground here. So I'll just continue to negotiate on one of Bartels last log books to bring it home, and I'll opt out of this thread. Interesting conversation gentlemen.

 

[Erich]

well hopeful you learned something during this lengthy thread that you cannot stand on a pilots basis until further cross-checking of the claim is sought out.

the evidence has been presented, IV./JG 27 claimed P-38's and that is what they did: claimed

 

[stona]

Well, I see theres no middle ground here. So I'll just continue to negotiate on one of Bartels last log books to bring it home, and I'll opt out of this thread. Interesting conversation gentlemen.

What does a logbook show as far as claims go? We know he made the claims which should be noted in his flugbuch but that doesn't prove anything.Why can't you differentiate between a claim and a loss? It's not the same thing.
I don't know why I'm bothering to post,this is pointless.
Steve

 

[parsifal]

well for what its worth i enjoyed watching the discussion. It was a good effort gents

 

[drgondog]

Well, I see theres no middle ground here. So I'll just continue to negotiate on one of Bartels last log books to bring it home, and I'll opt out of this thread. Interesting conversation gentlemen.

Ratsel - I must admit to some puzzlement regarding this exchange. Bartels was clearly a very good fighter pilot. What is being debated are two bodies of evidence, three if you include Bartels logbook.

On one hand there is an account of a couple of battles in which Bartels engages in and claims 4 and three respectively - namely November 15, 1943 near Athens and one on April 24, 1944 all around Munich.

In the first case Bartels logbook and the LW credits list is submitted for evidence. He receives credit for 4 out of 13+ P-38s awarded to JG 27 by theoretically meticulous claim-research-award process. Ditto the other 9 credited to various pilots. Seven of those are deemed destroyed at Kalamaki, south of Greece. The USAAF which also kept excellent loss and damaged records, which survived the war, records one Missing Aircrew report for P-38 which was observed to be hit by flak near Athens, seen to trail the bomber and escorting force westbound until it disappeared from view, was recorded as crashed near Thebes, pilot in wreckage, KIA. No enemy encounters reported by 1st FG, and no German fighters spotted in Witness reports.

One enmy combat was reported by 96FS/82nd FG in which 2 Me 109s were credited as destroyed (no corroboration from German records that I have seen) for no losses. One P-38 from 82nd crashed on take off. Pilot recovered but died of injuries.

Is it difficult to now question JG 27 claims of 13+ P-38s destroyed in air to air combat when there were only two possible examples of P-38 Fighter Groups escorting that day with one hit by flak and one lost in take off accident? It is feasible that the 1st FG pilot was caught by Bartels near Thebes but if his base was at Kalamaki - wouldn't he have said '40-60 km west of athens' - as he precisely stated in two of his April 24 claims?

Ditto - April 24 when the LW claimed 12 USAAF fighters shot down by Me 109s (plus one Me 110) in Munich area when in fact, six were lost air to air, two of which were observed to collide with the Me 110's that they shot down. Now ZG26 DID claim one of the P-51s - but that leaves 12 P-51 claims against four actually lost. Bartels is credited with three of the 12, one of which based on location is within 20 miles of the credited location... All four of these were 'loners' separated from their squadron according to MACR statements.

It took me awhile to start checking facts when comparing credits to losses and in case of LW (large block of missing records) and spotty claim/award process for ALL air forces early in war and particularly in PTO where crash sites were near impossible to validate - or Africa or Russia in winter, etc.

 

[Readie]

I read all the posts and was left wondering if Hartmann would approve of the dissection of his career and pointless arguing over semantics.

John

 

[Erich]

John :

would any former WW 2 pilot of either nation ? but because of the notoriety of some maybe it is high time to question flugbuch entries. again as I have pointed out the last 5 years on many forums flugbuchs were fudged, the question is why and no-one has come up with a solid firm answer.

time to start up a new thread I feel guys.

and speaking of the April 24 operation : I./JG 301 has a high protection staffel # 4 bringing the gruppe up to 4 staffels in strength. H. Müller of 2./JG 301 flying a Bf 109G-6 shoots down a P-51 of ? group near Ebersberger Forest. in return his white 5 is shot to pieces where he makes a belly landing at Münche-Riem. I./JG 301 suffered this date with 8 losses KIA and WIA.