Erich Hartmann - how did his comrades regard him?
- Thread starter paradoxguy
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
drgondog
Major
Erich - I just found the 2009 update and still see nothing there for Nov 15 1943?
Exactly the same Mosquito/Halifax/ETO awards for 14th and night of 15th.
Exactly the same Mosquito/Halifax/ETO awards for 14th and night of 15th.
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
' Er versteht nicht, oder nie flog ein Me 109. '
I think the above roughly translates to 'A Me109 won't fly without a rudder'
John
Are you looking at the ' 15. November 1943 Lw.Kdo. Süd-Ost: Jafü Greichenland ' PDF? Becouse theres fourteen P-38 claims (four claimed by Bartels) for 11.15.43.
Erich,
what unit badge is that???
Last edited:
Now how I interpret the combat report see:
340th Bomb Group History
is that the holed planes were B-25s of 488th, nothing on P-38s and from target photo overcast seems to have been above B-25s, which saw the excellent escort work of P-38s, so B-25s seem to have been holed by flak. IMHO nothing to prove Bartels' or others claims.
Juha
340th Bomb Group History
is that the holed planes were B-25s of 488th, nothing on P-38s and from target photo overcast seems to have been above B-25s, which saw the excellent escort work of P-38s, so B-25s seem to have been holed by flak. IMHO nothing to prove Bartels' or others claims.
Juha
Erich
the old Sage
Juha I think you are very right, again this may indeed been early for JG 27 of IVth gruppe to have gun cameras yet . . . ? so a wingman was needed but no doubt the Bf 109G-6'smixed it up with P-38's and again we see total chaos from both sides in who claimed whom shot down. Wingmans on both sides were too busy clearing off their own tails to watch their own leadership claiming or trying to escape. Again for the date we need all P-38 units histories plus it appears the B-25 units as well, a general overview by Ken Rust will not be acceptable.
Bill yes the MTO section for the years as Ratsel stated on Woods exhaustive listings.
Ratsel that is the stadt wappen of Lückau which is right on the edge almost some 5km ENE of III./JG 301's Airfield at Alteno when they were flying more for testing purposes the TA 152H-0. I have pics of the A/F for my book, the wappenshield seemed pretty cool to have as an avatar for now.
Bill yes the MTO section for the years as Ratsel stated on Woods exhaustive listings.
Ratsel that is the stadt wappen of Lückau which is right on the edge almost some 5km ENE of III./JG 301's Airfield at Alteno when they were flying more for testing purposes the TA 152H-0. I have pics of the A/F for my book, the wappenshield seemed pretty cool to have as an avatar for now.
Yep, and its also stated that the failed to meet up with some P-38 escorts. 1stFG seems to be missing a few. It could just be incomplete records though. So the question remains, what happened to those P-38s? the 488th dosn't seem to know or cannot pinpoint which P-38s were present. Also, there were many many P-38fg's within range of Kalamaki. JG 27 patrolled Kalamaki to Eleusis, Dafni, Patras, Akrata, and all points in between. To assume all Gruppes in JG 27 were all at Kalamaki that day is foolhearty (yes I know in the Woods list it say downed at Kalamaki I'm sure a pilot log would be more specific).
checked MACRs. twice. maybe I should check again.
Erich, chaos is an understatement I think. And agreed on who shot who down. Most interesting on your advatar. Thanks for the info.
checked MACRs. twice. maybe I should check again.
Erich, chaos is an understatement I think. And agreed on who shot who down. Most interesting on your advatar. Thanks for the info.
Last edited:
Erich
the old Sage
again please check the MACR's that we have been talking about.
note the JG 301 wappenshield and note the animal in black ....see any resemblance ?
note the JG 301 wappenshield and note the animal in black ....see any resemblance ?
Hello Ratsel
we know that not all Gruppen of JG 27 were at Kalamaki on 15 Nov 43, is somebody claimed otherwise? That fighters missed their rendezvous with bombers usually meant only that they just didn't meet, not that something sinister had happened to either formation.
Juha
we know that not all Gruppen of JG 27 were at Kalamaki on 15 Nov 43, is somebody claimed otherwise? That fighters missed their rendezvous with bombers usually meant only that they just didn't meet, not that something sinister had happened to either formation.
Juha
I./JG27 - 22.8.43 - 6.6.44 > Fels am Wagram (near Vienna)
II./JG27 - 20.8.43 - 12.9.43 > Eschborn (near Frankfurt)
III./JG27 - 10.11.43 - 11.43 > Kalamaki, 11.43 - 3.12.43 > Tanagra
IV.JG27 - 28.10.43 - 22.11.43 > Podgorica, 22.11.43 - 12.43 > Mostar
Jagdgeschwader 27
II./JG27 - 20.8.43 - 12.9.43 > Eschborn (near Frankfurt)
III./JG27 - 10.11.43 - 11.43 > Kalamaki, 11.43 - 3.12.43 > Tanagra
IV.JG27 - 28.10.43 - 22.11.43 > Podgorica, 22.11.43 - 12.43 > Mostar
Jagdgeschwader 27
Erich
the old Sage
ok hopefully this settles this .......... for the proposed claims of IV./JG 27
1 B-25 shot down south of Lebadeia
1 P-38 shot down west of Arachoba
1 P-38 shot down south of Aspra Spitia
1 P-38 shot down west of Arachoba
1 P-38 shot down south of Amfissa
6 P-38's shot down S.E. of Kalamaki, this includes the 4 claims by Bartels
1 P-38 shot down 20 km S.E. of Kalamaki
1 P-38 shot down over Flebes
1 P-38 shot down over Aigina
1 P-38 shot down East of Aigina
times for these purported claims is from 11:24 hrs - 13.17 hrs.
1 B-25 shot down south of Lebadeia
1 P-38 shot down west of Arachoba
1 P-38 shot down south of Aspra Spitia
1 P-38 shot down west of Arachoba
1 P-38 shot down south of Amfissa
6 P-38's shot down S.E. of Kalamaki, this includes the 4 claims by Bartels
1 P-38 shot down 20 km S.E. of Kalamaki
1 P-38 shot down over Flebes
1 P-38 shot down over Aigina
1 P-38 shot down East of Aigina
times for these purported claims is from 11:24 hrs - 13.17 hrs.
Hello Ratsel
can you explain what those -38s ordered during FY 1944 do in your list?, at least 44-23153 seems to have been lost in Oct 44, something what one expects with that serial number, I have not info on the other two but nearest serials to those on which I have info were lost in Apr 45 (24132 and 24190 both from 1st FG)
Juha
can you explain what those -38s ordered during FY 1944 do in your list?, at least 44-23153 seems to have been lost in Oct 44, something what one expects with that serial number, I have not info on the other two but nearest serials to those on which I have info were lost in Apr 45 (24132 and 24190 both from 1st FG)
Juha
Dig a bit more early in FY 1943 ordered, now some hits, first is the known loss on 15 Nov 43, to AAA, two others were lost to fighters but in Oct and in Dec 43 respectively
2184 (1st FG, 71st FS) shot down by AAA over Greece Nov 15, 1943. MACR 1306. Pilot KIA.
2332 (82nd FG, 95th FS) shot down by Bf 109G-6 of JG 27 over Greece and ditched near Cape Kefali, Greece Oct 8, 1943. Pilot evaded.
2531 (82nd FG, 96th FS) damaged by fighter over Greece Dec 6, 1943 and crashed 80-90 mi NW of Athens. MACR 1469. Pilot evaded.
Must ask, what's your game Ratsel?
Juha
2184 (1st FG, 71st FS) shot down by AAA over Greece Nov 15, 1943. MACR 1306. Pilot KIA.
2332 (82nd FG, 95th FS) shot down by Bf 109G-6 of JG 27 over Greece and ditched near Cape Kefali, Greece Oct 8, 1943. Pilot evaded.
2531 (82nd FG, 96th FS) damaged by fighter over Greece Dec 6, 1943 and crashed 80-90 mi NW of Athens. MACR 1469. Pilot evaded.
Must ask, what's your game Ratsel?
Juha
Erich
the old Sage
there were only 2 P-38's lost, 1 from the 1st fg the other from the 14th the 82nd fg history says a big fat 0 for losses on the 15th of November 43.
drgondog
Major
I went to 'all LW West claim list and found the 13 claims for JG 27. Seven at Kalamaki between Bartels and Hackl. How close is Kalamaki to Thebes where the one P-38 Crash and recorded loss occurred?
Last edited:
If someone is determined enough to believe something they won't let a few inconvenient facts and figures stand in their way.
Steve
Kryten
Senior Airman
what this thread shows is how unreliable individual and unit claims are, it was gross overclaiming and the lack of realistic intelligence to back it up that caused the Luftwaffe to believe they had attrited the RAF enough to shift thier focus away from fighter command airfields in the BOB, and it happened on both sides during the war, the only true judge of an air forces performance in a campaign is the end result!
Users who are viewing this thread
Similar threads
