Erich Hartmann - how did his comrades regard him?

stona said:

Yes,because noone can prove the unprovable. As much original documentation as we are ever likely to see has now been seen. The true numbers weren't known in 1945 and we're not about to discover them now. It's a waste of time. The discussion always degenerates into opinions and these haven't changed in the last twenty years or so. I probably had the same face to face debates about Hartmann (and others) in 1985 that are repeated endlessly in the virtual world of the internet today.
Sholto Douglas was right in 1948!
Steve

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Absolutely right Steve. Wasted motion. Same old arguments, same old counter arguments.

I don't think so. with new docs. available and most importantly unit diaries found.to call 20-30 year old opinions gosspil is just crazy. lists can be checked and crossed referenced. its safe to say without a word of doubt that Hartmann had anywhere between 323 to 352 claims. even the russians put him on trial for destroying 345 'expensive aircraft'.

Yes,because noone can prove the unprovable. As much original documentation as we are ever likely to see has now been seen. The true numbers weren't known in 1945 and we're not about to discover them now. It's a waste of time. The discussion always degenerates into opinions and these haven't changed in the last twenty years or so. I probably had the same face to face debates about Hartmann (and others) in 1985 that are repeated endlessly in the virtual world of the internet today.
Sholto Douglas was right in 1948!
Steve

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Then you should explain why Marseille's 17 claims were massively contested by the RAF till 1970! After some serious authors done the research, the claims were confirmed!

You can't negate all to claim claim claim!

It is a fact that the LW had less a/c's then the allied's (RAF, US, USSR) and had flawn much less bombing raides to airfields the whole war compare to the other three nations. So someone must have destroyed some allied a/c's!

You should explain that!

Ratsel said:

I don't think so. with new docs. available and most importantly unit diaries found.to call 20-30 year old opinions gosspil is just crazy. lists can be checked and crossed referenced. its safe to say without a word of doubt that Hartmann had anywhere between 323 to 352 claims. even the russians put him on trial for destroying 345 'expensive aircraft'.

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There might be some new evidence in the Russian archives, in fact a friend of mine is doing some research with this material at the moment, but nothing Hartmann related.

As for him being put on trial, he had a certain propaganda value without doubt - to the Nazis while the war was on, and the Soviets after they'd won.

Curious that everyone gets excited about Hartmann while Barkhorn is largely ignored. But hey, not my area of interest.

DonL said:

You should explain that!

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I'm not trying to deny losses. My point is that trying to equate EVERY claim with an equivalent loss is not possible. It wasn't possible at the time and certainly isn't now.
Hartmann did not shoot down 352 enemy aircraft. How many? I don't know and nor does anybody else. We can argue about it until we are blue in the face but we still won't know.


Steve

Maximowitz said:

As for him being put on trial, he had a certain propaganda value without doubt -
.

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then why was he singled out? lots of pilots in the Ost front had high claims.. they must have had a reason.. apparently 345 expensive a/c's was the reason.

stona said:

I'm not trying to deny losses. My point is that trying to equate EVERY claim with an equivalent loss is not possible. It wasn't possible at the time and certainly isn't now.
Hartmann did not shoot down 352 enemy aircraft. How many? I don't know and nor does anybody else. We can argue about it until we are blue in the face but we still won't know.


Steve

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your right. but in todays day and age one can get a very good approximate. a bejillion amount of new info is available as say to 20/30/50 years ago.

Its partially all to do with the propaganda and its residual effects amongst us; Hartmann was blond, young and poster quality looks, poor Barkhorn was dark haired and not as young.
As the years roll by and various state/natoinal archives release certain classified info, more can found out and compared/argued/discussed over, but I think the next major batch of info will be released in 2029 - 2037 or 2039 - 2047 after the 90/100 post-event/achive internment years restriction.

I wonder how much of the Nurmeburg Trials (or Soviet trial) video's are availble online pertaining to Hartmanns case?

razor1uk said:

Its partially all to do with the propaganda and its residual effects amongst us; Hartmann was blond, young and poster quality looks, poor Barkhorn was dark haired and not as young.

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oh lordy lordy.. really? Barkhorn was one of the few noted Luftwaffe Experten who escaped being imprisoned by the russians. thats the reason why. you won't find any video on russian trial of Hartmann.. they were to busy trying to convert him to communism and he was to busy telling them where to go and how to get there.

razor1uk said:

I wonder how much of the Nuremburg Trials (or Soviet trial) video's are available online pertaining to Hartmanns case?

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He was put on trial by the Soviets - I suppose it served a purpose for Stalin from a point of view of propaganda, blonde poster boy nazi gets the salt mine treatment - plus the fact he ended up in captivity while everybody else was falling over themselves to surrender to the Western Allies.

Here you all go again. Some new information and a lot of opinions did emerge from the East particularly after the Antifaschistischer Schutzwall (Berlin wall) came down in 1989. A bejillion amount of new information is not available now compared to 20 years ago.More has however been published.
I was in the Army Museum in Leningrad at the height of "glasnost" but pre Soviet collapse and had a lot of difficulty convincing a group Soviet naval cadets that the United Kingdom hadn't fought with nazi Germany in the Great Patriotic War. I'm getting a familiar feeling in this thread!
That's me out of here.
Cheers
Steve

Thanks for that Maxim Steve - nice point their too about the Cadets - WW2 didn't exist in basic 'Soviet' history.

I agree with Ratsel, that much new info has been recovered during past 30 years and for ex Wood's claim lists showed what and when LW pilots had claimed and on most cases was the claim accepted, put under closer scrutinity or rejected.

On Hartmann's trial, IIRC the claim that he had been charged for destruction of xxx planes seems to be a myth.

On Marseille, IIRC he was a fairly reliable claimer even if his claim accuracy dimished somewhat later on. If the claim that his 17 kills on one day is confirmed in a book which claimed that Krupinski confirmed H's 1 Jun 44 Mustang kills, I could care less. But yes, the claim made for ex by Johnnie Johnsson, that RAF lost only was that 5 fighters on that day was shown to be nonrelevant because SAAF also suffered heavy fighter losses on that day. Was that so that RAF and SAAF lost altogether some 14 fighters but Marseille wasn't the only LW claimant, so also the claim that all M's 17 claims can be proved from CW docus is bogus but M got maybe some 10-11 plus a couple badly damaged or something like that, so after all fairly accurate claim.

Juha

Ratsel said:

oh lordy lordy.. really? Barkhorn was one of the few noted Luftwaffe Experten who escaped being imprisoned by the russians. thats the reason why. you won't find any video on russian trial of Hartmann.. they were to busy trying to convert him to communism and he was to busy telling them where to go and how to get there.

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I do not dispute that, so why the sarcasm; I haven't attacked you (to my knowledge). Bear in mind other people, members, non members/guests potential members read posts here too you know.

parsifal said:

Ratsel, why say that, its obviously a post designed to inflame the debate and adds nothing to the exchange of knowledge and makes us all look like fools.

Saying things like that is a great way to start a brawl

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Ummm...shades of a former forum member methinks

razor1uk said:

I do not dispute that, so why the sarcasm; I haven't attacked you (to my knowledge). Bear in mind other people, members, non members/guests potential members read posts here too you know.

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what sarcasm? as far as I know, any information I posted is relevant. unlike somebody elses blond hair/young sterotype post. If you feel however that I was, then I sincerely appologise to you.

I'll keep it short and sweet (its easier I can't be bothered) Ratsel apology accepted.

This thread seems to be on the verge of getting out of control. It was very wise that some posts were edited.

Keep it under control and civil. Enough warnings were given out in other threads, there will be none given here...

I like more term victory than 'kill'. Claims were made in good hope - and in opinion of mine fighter pilot who got into fire position and report hits in enemy aircraft, makes back to base too is victor of air combat. No regard to if said enemy aircraft hits terra firma or no, ie. really destroyed..

On sideways noted - there are many many threads on forums concentrating on Hartmann. Is his claims valid? Always the arguement.. understandable, he was most successfull... but what is case with other "top" aces - Johnson, Koshedub, Sakai etc? How many of their claims verified after war?

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

This thread seems to be on the verge of getting out of control. It was very wise that some posts were edited.

Keep it under control and civil. Enough warnings were given out in other threads, there will be none given here...

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Mr DerAdlerIstGelandet I believe that sometimes you are oversensitive. During discussions the temperature may increase sometimes but i believe no hard feelings remain . Some sarcasm or irony should not in my opinion stop the discussion. Otherwise we should all of us have the same opinions.
P51 is super duper and untouchable
LW outnumbered (!!!!!) alleis till 1944
Hartmann has less than 70 kills and no pilot scored 200
etc
Allow some of us to disgree and try to support of our thesis. And i say that because as a rule the german supportes get banned (Mr Soren, Mr Crupp,P-40K-5) while their speech is not worse than the other members.
Also if some older members have already discussed some subjects in the past its no reason for the younger member not to discuss it again.

A comment for the original post. In ursulas Hartmanns photographic life story of Hartmann , in pages 154,155 there are 2 photos of Hartmann as Gruppekommandeur visiting 2nd and 3rd staffeln. No poor morale can be detected in these photos. In page 229 ther is a photo from June 1959 ,the day after Hartmann officialy activated Jg71 .The picture shows Hartmann with 23 of its pilots in front of a F86 in an unofficial pose. The morale appears to be excellent. Also there are many photos from american trips, aero clubs, NATO officers mmetings, WW2 international pilot reunions. It appears he was popular everywere.
I posses 3 books about Hartmann . It s true that by today standarts are not perfect. But its clear he was a very reliable person
a) He returned to combat even after Hitler retired him from combat b)He Stayed with his unit even when ORDERED to fly west and captured
c)He resisted during captivity and as a result was released 1n 1955(many prisoners co operated) d) He failed to keep his mouth closed in post war service with bad results for his career e) took great care for his wingmen
If that man claimed 352 kills i believe him and probaply had several more unconfirmed like most eastern front pilots. His rate of kills was great but noway unique .Batz,Nowotny,Graf,Rall, scored in similar or even better way. Many other pilots outscored him in short periods ( days,weeks)For example from 1/9/44-8/5/45 Hartmannn scored 51 kills. Helmut lipfert 58 kills.
Hartmanns secret was duration . He was lucky to avoid major injuries, escaped from captivity and fought for very long .Too young to become a wing commandeyr he kept flying multiple missions. I have 1400 missions ,825 contacts with enemy.Even if 825 are the total missions still its a massive number. Actually no one would call him the best german fighter pilot of ww2