Erich Hartmann - how did his comrades regard him?

[DonL]

I have other informations.

He downed 4 Mustungs(15th) in 10 minutes over Romania (1.6.1944).
That was confirmed to my informations from USAAF, LW, his wingman and Krupinsky.

 

[Ratsel]

why was Hartmann according to wiki, " hanging from his parachute "? after the dogfights with those P-51s.

 

[Milosh]

why was Hartmann according to wiki, " hanging from his parachute "? after the dogfights with those P-51s.

Out of fuel???

I gave the source in my post and can be found in Appendix 5: Luftwaffe material/personnel losses on 1st January 1945

 

[Ratsel]

Out of fuel???

I gave the source in my post and can be found in Appendix 5: Luftwaffe material/personnel losses on 1st January 1945

didn't he fly the same Bf 109G-6 WNr.166221 from begining of June - October 1944. Then switched out to a Bf109G-14/AM?

 

[TheMustangRider]

Hello MustangRider
Wiki is Wiki, here is more reliable list of Hartmann's claims Aces of the Luftwaffe - Erich Hartmann
only one P-51 during 44 plus one in early 45
Best way apart going to German archives is to check Wood's LW Eastern Front claim-lists-

Juha

Thank you Juha.
There seems to be conflicting information about his total victories on USAAF fighters. Your source appears to be quite reliable while I'm aware on the other hand, that Wiki is to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[DonL]

The fight with the four Mustangs came from 3 different sources.
And to all I know the USAAF confirmed this 4 Kills in 10 minutes!

Source: Kaplan, Toliver and Constable, Tillman!
Also E. Sims confirmed the 4 Kills in his book The Fighter Pilots.

 

[Ratsel]

I have other informations.

He downed 4 Mustungs(15th) in 10 minutes over Romania (1.6.1944).
That was confirmed to my informations from USAAF, LW, his wingman and Krupinsky.

Walter "Graf Punski" Krupinski was with JG 11 on 6.44. It wasn't Hartmann who shot down four P-51s.

 

[Juha]

Hello
Tony Wood's Eastern Front claim list showed only one confirmed Mustang for Hartmann on 24 June 44, plus one for Birkner also from 9./JG 52 and one for Voight fromStab II./SG 2

On 1 Jun 44 Hartmann claimed 5 LaGGs and one Airacobra, from the same source

Juha

 

[stona]

Claims,claims,claims.
Here's a quote from someone who understood what they were.

"The experience of two wars shows that in large-scale offensive operations the claims to the destruction of enemy aircraft made by pilots, however honestly made and carefully scrutinized, are a most inaccurate guide to the true situation. Moreover, the results achieved by an offensive can rarely be judged by a mere statistical comparison of casualties suffered and inflicted. Except when an operation has been launched purely for the purpose of procuring the attrition of the opposing force, a broader view than this must be taken of the strategic purpose and the extent to which it has been achieved."

From a report submitted on 29th February,1948,by Marshal of the Royal Air Force Sir Sholto Douglas, G.C.B., M.C., D.F.C. the former Commander-in-Chief of Fighter Command, Royal Air Force.

 

[Juha]

Hello Stona
that claims are only claims are well understood here, as we say here aeriel victories have certain percentage of air and certain percentage of victory. How much which depends on multiple factors in each case.

Hello Don
Wood's claim lists are mainly based on O.K.L. Fighter Claims Chef für Ausz. und Dizsiplin
Luftwaffen-Personalamt L.P. [A] V Films at BA-MA, so on a primary source, so I prefer it over secondary sources.

Juha

 

[Ratsel]

edited to keep this thread rolling along

 

[DonL]

Claims,claims,claims.

You can believe what you want, I believe what I want!

The four kills were officialy confirmed from the USAAF after Toliver and Constable!
Also Edward Sims had done a lot of work and research in his book and came to the conclusion, that the LW system was very accurate (better then RAF and USAAF) and to his estimate there are 10-15% more claims then shot downs.

He has done mostly research for BOB, the African Theatre and Dieppe.
He had personally researched with original RAF Dokuments of Squadrons and RAF lost lists.

He also confirmed after his personaly research the 17 shotdowns from Marseille.

You can all cry claims claims claims, I have no proof that the list from Toliver and Constable are not accurate.
They have done the most reasearch on Hartmann and they knew him personaly.

 

[parsifal]

Ratsel, why say that, its obviously a post designed to inflame the debate and adds nothing to the exchange of knowledge and makes us all look like fools.

Saying things like that is a great way to start a brawl

 

[Juha]

Hello Don
now serious researchers' opinion is that T's C's book is out of date, the main argument against Khazanovs claim that Hartmann shot down only 80 planes is just that K used T C as his source of H's claims. The fact is that Hartmann didn't claim Mustangs on 1 Jun 44 according to LW docus.

Juha

 

[Ratsel]

Ratsel, why say that, its obviously a post designed to inflame the debate and adds nothing to the exchange of knowledge and makes us all look like fools.

Saying things like that is a great way to start a brawl

wow dude.. your reading way way way way way to much into post #111. take it with a grain of salt.

Hello Don
The fact is that Hartmann didn't claim Mustangs on 1 Jun 44 according to LW docus.

Juha

exactly. not to mention that Krupinski was with JG 11 at the time.

 

[Ratsel]

double post. sorry.

 

[Maximowitz]

Ratsel, why say that, its obviously a post designed to inflame the debate and adds nothing to the exchange of knowledge and makes us all look like fools.

Saying things like that is a great way to start a brawl

I've seen similar topics on Hartmann on a few other forums - they always end up the same.

 

[razor1uk]

I've seen similar topics on Hartmann on a few other forums - they always end up the same.

True words there Maxim

 

[Ratsel]

edited to keep this thread rolling along

 

[stona]

I've seen similar topics on Hartmann on a few other forums - they always end up the same.

Yes,because noone can prove the unprovable. As much original documentation as we are ever likely to see has now been seen. The true numbers weren't known in 1945 and we're not about to discover them now. It's a waste of time. The discussion always degenerates into opinions and these haven't changed in the last twenty years or so. I probably had the same face to face debates about Hartmann (and others) in 1985 that are repeated endlessly in the virtual world of the internet today.
Sholto Douglas was right in 1948!
Steve