Erich Hartmann - how did his comrades regard him?

If you took away his alleged score, would Hartmann be a subject of such interest? If he was just "Flieger Average" in JG52 with a couple of claims to his name? Doubtful, there were far more colourful characters than him in the Luftwaffe. The score makes the myth and the myth makes the man.

Thanks Juha.

Max, I understand that but my point is if you even half the claims by 50% you still have those top scorers. And back to the topic of the thread, this score isn't from someone who I percieve as arrogant, conceited or prone to making inflated claims. So much work seems to be put to Hartmann "overclaiming" yet, to me even if that were true, he still is a remarkable flyer and pilot and, in my opinion, doesn't deserve this revision on his career.

Hello Njaco
IMHO Hartmann was a remarkable fighterpilot even if current info seems to indicate that he wasn't the most careful claimer, but that isn't the final verdict. Barkhorn seemed to have been usually very careful claimer even if there seems to be some decrease in his claim accuracy when he approached the magic 300th.

Juha

Maximowitz said:

If you took away his alleged score, would Hartmann be a subject of such interest? If he was just "Flieger Average" in JG52 with a couple of claims to his name? Doubtful, there were far more colourful characters than him in the Luftwaffe. The score makes the myth and the myth makes the man.

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Its not a myth that he spent 10 1/2 years in Russia because he resisted the soviets unlike others personalities. He suffered more pressures than most but remained himself.
Eric Hartmann is not just a pilot of legend, like Marseille whose death immortalised him.Hartmann deid in1993 .Countless leaving persons knew him and all (inclunding anglosaxons) speak of a great man and character. In order to dispute the ace you insult the man .Its very unfair for him to say the least.

I'm not insulting him. I'm saying does it matter? His worth as a man may be more than his deeds.

Just checked in again to see that the utterly pointless claims debate continues!
Good luck fellas.
Steve

If you take Hartmanns score of 352 divide it by the first number you think of carry the 1 add the number of days in a thousand year Reich and multiply by minus 1 I still couldnt care less how many planes he shot down or whether he was a card carrying Nazi bastard who beat fluffy kittens to death with a hammer.

He was obviously a good enough pilot who was lucky enough to survive a lot of combat. Numbers mean nothing if the battle is lost.

I believe 1307 spitfires fell to just 50 Luftwaffe pilots.

1802 Luftwaffe planes shot down by 50 Soviet fighter pilots (or 1976 shot down by 54), not counting shared kills which would add another 241. Approx 70% fighters would mean about 1430 109s and 190s shot down by 50 Soviet pilots.

links for those who wish to check my math:
Soviet / Russian Aces of WWII
Soviet air aces World War Two

Would love to see some supporting evidence Ratsel for your 1307 spitfire shootdown figure. I wouldn't be surprised by 1307 RAF fighters by the top 50 Luftwaffe pilots, but I'd be surprised if there weren't some Hurricanes, P40s etc in the mix.

"Spitfire vs Bf 109" by Tony Holmes
pg 71

"Overall during the four months of the Battle of Britain.....the Jagdwaffe lost 610 Bf 109s which compares favourably to Fighter Command's 1,023 Spitfires and Hurricanes. Of course the only targets presented to the Jagdflieger during this period were fighters, and it appears that they claimed around 770 of the aircraft lost by Fighter Command. This gave the Bf 109E pilots a favorable kill ratio of 1.2:1...."

Hi NJ


If recent research has taught me anything, its that things are seldom as they seem. I think that is true particulalry for quoting losses and strengths

There is a thread concerning the Air battle at Kursk, where we examine losses in some detail. Firstly there was a great deal of debate about actual loss comparisons for the Russians and the Axis. We found lots of discrepancies that can easily skew the numbers. Looking at Bergstrom, for example, he only relates losses to a portion of the formations committed. Many sources only list immediate reported losses.....aircraft either lost outright, or written off on the spot immediately after landing. No accounts included airframes getting home, sent to the factories for rebuilds andf then written off. In 1942, on the Eastern Front, for example their quoted "immediate" losses of about 4000 aircraft, increased by a further 1900 aircraft to this pohenomenon, to which must be added a further 549 or so crates arroiving home safely, not included in the initial OKL loss returns, and then written of by the Flyvo (admin command) before shipment back to the rear. then there is an annual pretty much constant loss rate due to non-combat related causes. In the East this could rise above 10% per month in Winter, and hovered around 8% per month during clear weather. annually it was a shade under 150% of the total force structure per annum. And Luftwaffe attrition rates always come up two or three times heavier than Allied losses, although during the BoB they seem quite similar (an exception to the rule). Over France in April-July 1941, the Germans lost far less than the FC, until you factor in these "hidden" losses.

So to get a true picture of losses by type, we would need to look even further than the daily loss returns of each side. These only record the immediate losses. We would need to look also at post action write offs to get a better picture....for the LW this tended to happen on a quarterly basis, so usually there is some delay in these figures surfacing .

This is not a particulalry anti-German snipe, its just that I have been studdying German losses and trying to reconcile those reported losses to aircraft availability and serviceability rates for some time now. I am sure that similar conclusions can be drawn for the allies. For the US, for example, they lost a total of 18000 aircraft to non-combat related causes in the ETO/MTO, and a further 22000 in actual combat 1942-5.


Its muchj harder to accurately report losses than people realize. Because of that, I would be surprised if the loss figures you have quoted are complete......

Cheers

Oh, I agree and even Tony Holmes mentions that in his book. He even goes on to make reference that the losses suffered by JG 51 during BoB, about 65% of pilots lost by JG 51 hadn't scored a single victory, about 25% had scored at least one and the rest multiple times. Those percentages are mine and in no way scientific - just quickly from reading the text. Does support the claim that 50 LW pilots claimed those previously posted high numbers.

But that brings up back to stona's last post - which I completely agree with!

parsifal said:

Hi NJ


If recent research has taught me anything, its that things are seldom as they seem. I think that is true particulalry for quoting losses and strengths

There is a thread concerning the Air battle at Kursk, where we examine losses in some detail. Firstly there was a great deal of debate about actual loss comparisons for the Russians and the Axis. We found lots of discrepancies that can easily skew the numbers. Looking at Bergstrom, for example, he only relates losses to a portion of the formations committed. Many sources only list immediate reported losses.....aircraft either lost outright, or written off on the spot immediately after landing. No accounts included airframes getting home, sent to the factories for rebuilds andf then written off. In 1942, on the Eastern Front, for example their quoted "immediate" losses of about 4000 aircraft, increased by a further 1900 aircraft to this pohenomenon, to which must be added a further 549 or so crates arroiving home safely, not included in the initial OKL loss returns, and then written of by the Flyvo (admin command) before shipment back to the rear. then there is an annual pretty much constant loss rate due to non-combat related causes. In the East this could rise above 10% per month in Winter, and hovered around 8% per month during clear weather. annually it was a shade under 150% of the total force structure per annum. And Luftwaffe attrition rates always come up two or three times heavier than Allied losses, although during the BoB they seem quite similar (an exception to the rule). Over France in April-July 1941, the Germans lost far less than the FC, until you factor in these "hidden" losses.

So to get a true picture of losses by type, we would need to look even further than the daily loss returns of each side. These only record the immediate losses. We would need to look also at post action write offs to get a better picture....for the LW this tended to happen on a quarterly basis, so usually there is some delay in these figures surfacing .

This is not a particulalry anti-German snipe, its just that I have been studdying German losses and trying to reconcile those reported losses to aircraft availability and serviceability rates for some time now. I am sure that similar conclusions can be drawn for the allies. For the US, for example, they lost a total of 18000 aircraft to non-combat related causes in the ETO/MTO, and a further 22000 in actual combat 1942-5.


Its muchj harder to accurately report losses than people realize. Because of that, I would be surprised if the loss figures you have quoted are complete......

Cheers

Click to expand...

According to Jg26 war diary what you are saying about France 41 is simply untrue. According to Jg 53, Jg77 histories what you are saying is also untrue. JG2, Jg54 histories ( but less good books) also do not support your opinion. In fact i find no book at all to even be close to your clames.
If i understand correct you include in the casualties aircrafts that came back to base ,then transfered to factory and then decided that were written off? And recycled?If yes in category"damaged" which cases you include? What kind of creative logistic is this? Have you any idea how many B17s,lancasters came home beyond repair? And in american case even mediocre damaged aircraft could not be sent to the factry?
You seriously suggest that LW suffered 3 times more attrition due to non combat than red air force whose aircraft lacked even basic instrumentation? And was forced to retire large numbers of fighters soon after the war because of bad quality of airframes(but were flown normally during the hostillities)? Are you aware that an entire squadron of richly built corsairs was lost in the pacific due wheather? Or 5 109 hitting together the ground in deceber 41 in france? Even anlosaxons that come in touch with russian planes of the era are amazed by their lack of basic construction quality and equipment.
And i suppose you ,and Mr Bergstrom and all "modern " resaerchers use the soviets archives. Which were written by the political comisars of the units. And have the reliability of the Stalin era.
In rough numbers allies lost 170000 to all causes. According to the new calculations whats the nimber for the LW ?

Jim, cool down and check post #47. Losses I listed are from Ellis.

yep. out of Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller (Jg 51) 101 claims 68 were spitfires. Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller (JG 53) 56+spitfires claims out of 102 total claims, Galland (JG 27) had 50 claims for spitfires etc., etc.

2467 russian planes fell to just 10 Luftwaffe pilots in the East.

for claidemore: if you can post a site with a more complete breakdown of russian claims, it would be most appreciated. otherwise those two links (and associated links at the bottom) mean nothing.... just some aledged total numbers on a website. well to me anyways. thanks.

anyways heres some ' supporting evidence ' for my numbers. Kacha`s Luftwaffe Page the breakdowns are fairly complete accurate.

jim said:

Mr DerAdlerIstGelandet I believe that sometimes you are oversensitive. During discussions the temperature may increase sometimes but i believe no hard feelings remain . Some sarcasm or irony should not in my opinion stop the discussion. Otherwise we should all of us have the same opinions.

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Everyone is entitled to an opinion, as long as it remains civil.

Oversensitive? Absolutely not...

I have been a moderator on this forum for many years now and I can say that we moderators know when threads are starting get out of hand. WE will always allow a little bit of play as long as it is relevant to the thread. As soon as it is only insulting and bears no relevance to the thread we stop it. Therefore before it gets out of hand WE stop it from happening to keep the thread on track.

Now while I respect your opinion on the matter of my moderation, may I continue to do it how I see fit?

Njaco said:

Jim, don't dictate how a Moderator should do his job, especially Adler.

We're asking things to be civil and not turn into sarcastic name-calling, which happens too frequently in threads such as this.



and unfortunately, it does, hence the warning to be civil.



And for the record, people are banned here based upon not following the rules or acting un-civil towards anyone. We will not tolerate it. Getting kicked out because you support Germans is nonsense.

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Well said, lets move on...

So we are looking at claimed victories i assume rather than actual victories

Some figures for consideration

18 December 1939 Luftwaffe and Royal Air Force During the Battle of the Heligoland Bight German fighters claimed 38 Vickers Wellington bombers shot down. Actual British losses were 12. The bombers gunners claimed 12 German fighters. Just three were recorded as shot down.

10 July 1940 Luftwaffe III./ZG 76 claimed 12 Hawker Hurricanes. The RAF lost just one Hurricane that day, in a collision with a Dornier Do 17

13 July 1940 Royal Air Force No. 56 Squadron RAF claimed seven Ju 87s from Sturzkampfgeschwader 1 destroyed over Portland. StG 1 recorded the loss of only two Ju 87s shot down. However 5 others were subsequently scrapped

12 August 1940 Luftwaffe The Germans claimed 22 British aircraft destroyed, actual British losses were 3. In one engagement Bf 109s from JG 2 claimed six RAF fighters, while bombers from KG 54 claimed 14. Only one fighter was shot down and six damaged (3 later scrapped).

18 August 1940 Luftwaffe The Germans claimed 147 British aircraft destroyed, actual recorded British losses were 68.

15 September 1940 Royal Air Force On the day termed as "the Battle of Britain Day", the RAF claimed 185 German aircraft shot down. German recorded losses were 60.

1940 Luftwaffe Overall, German claims for British fighters destroyed during the Battle of Britain was 3,058 against recorded losses of 915 - 334% overclaiming, compared with RAF overclaiming of about 155%[. This, coupled with underestimation of British production, had severe intelligence repercussions.

June 1941 - December 1941 Red Air Force In this time the Voenno-Vozdushnye Sily of the South Western Front claimed 85 Bf 109s. A further 53 were claimed by anti-aircraft units in October and another 54 in November. Only 31 Bf 109s were recorded as lost by the Luftwaffe in this period 9though a further 30 were subsequently scrapped) . VVS claims on the Eastern Front amount to 3,879. Anti-aircraft units claimed a further 752. A further 3,257 were claimed on the ground. The Luftwaffe reported the loss of 3,827 aircraft to all causes on the Eastern Front in 1941, making VVS overclaiming more than 100%.

June 1941 - December 1941 Royal Air Force During this period RAF Fighter Command launched a sustained 'fighter offensive' over Northern Europe, designed to tie down Luftwaffe fighter units, and hence indirectly take pressure off the Eastern Front, and to hopefully draw those Luftwaffe units encountered into a war of attrition. Fighting exclusively over enemy territory, and thus usually unable to accurately verify their pilot's combat reports, Fighter Command claimed 711 Luftwaffe fighters shot down, while losing 411 of its own fighters. The loss to JG 2 and JG 26, the principal opponents, were reportedly just 103 fighters (but there were additional losses sustained due to more detailed damage assessments, ie taken out group control and sent to the rear for repair, but not actually repaired)

8 June 1942 Red Air Force: 6 GIAP/VVS ChF This unit claimed nine German aircraft shot down in a single action. Not a single German aircraft of any type recorded as lost.


20 July 1942 - 10 August 1942 Luftwaffe During this period Fliegerkorps VIII claimed to shot down 606 Soviet aircraft while destroying another 107 on the ground. In fact the actual losses of VVS were 230 aircraft - 114 fighters, 70 Shturmoviks, 29 Pe-2s, four Su-2s and 13 night bombers. This includes all losses that are known

26 July 1942 Red Air Force: 434 IAP and 512 IAP These units claimed 18 and 12 kills against Macchi C.200s of the Italian 21 Gruppo Autonomo C.T. during the Fall Blau operation. The Italian unit lost three Macchi in total.

15 September 1942 Luftwaffe
Desert Air Force Jagdgeschwader 27 claimed 19-20 aerial victories while Royal Australian Air Force and RAF records report the loss of 3 aircraft (a further Allied fighter was lost due to friendly ground fire and one additional a/c was scrapped due to damage). The Allies claimed two destroyed, two probables and three damaged in the same engagement. The Germans lost Lt. Hoffmann of I. Gruppe and Uffz. Prien to a midair collision, killing Prien. No further losses had been reported.

15 December 1942 IJAAF Burma: 50th Sentai pilots submitted claims for six Hawker Hurricanes shot down over Chittagong. Not one Hurricane was even damaged.

25 December 1942 United States Army Air Force Burma: 16th Fighter Squadron, 23rd Fighter Group pilots submitted claims for ten enemy aircraft shot down, five probables and one damaged. The 64th Sentai lost one Ki-43 and three Ki-48 from 8th Sentai were damaged.

17 April 1943 United States Army Air Force: 91st, 306th Bomb Groups During a mission against the Focke Wulf plant near Bremen, The Americans claimed 63 German fighters destroyed in aerial combat, plus 15 probable and 17 damaged. Only two were destroyed by enemy action, with nine damaged (5 subsequently scrapped).

2 March 1943 No. 54 Squadron RAF No. 457 Squadron RAAF; 202nd Kokutai, Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service Each side claimed three enemy aircraft destroyed. Neither side suffered any losses.

5 July 1943 - 8 July 1943 Red Air Force: 2.VA, and 16.VA During the Battle of Kursk, the Soviet unit 2.VA claimed 487 aircraft from Fliegerkorps VIII shot down. German records show the Luftwaffe lost only 41. According to the Generalquartiemeister der Luftwaffe 58 were lost to all causes. The 16 VA unit claimed 391 against Luftflotte 6. Actual losses were 39. The Soviets claimed a total of 878 German aircraft destroyed. Losses were 97. However these are immediate combat losses. LW losses were basically doubled due to susbsequent scrappings due damage

17 August 1943 United States Army Air Force, Luftwaffe After the Schweinfurt-Regensburg mission Gunners on the bombers claimed 288 fighters shot down. Spitfire pilots claimed another 7 German fighters shot down and P-47 pilots claimed 14. Luftwaffe records show 40 aircraft lost. The Luftwaffe claimed 101 bombers and five fighters shot down, however only 60 B-17s and no fighters were reported lost. however, there were a large number of bombers so badly damaged they never flew again

14 October 1943 United States Army Air Force, Luftwaffe After the Second Raid on Schweinfurt Gunners aboard the B-17 bombers claimed to have shot down 138 German fighters. German records state only 38 were lost. German fighters claimed 121 bombers, the actual figure was 60. Again many additional aircraft were scrapped due to damage, on both sides

6 January 1944 United States Army Air Force On this date bomber crews claimed 210 German fighters and their escorts claiming 31, for a total of 241 claims. German losses amounted to 39 in total.

3 March 1944 United States Army Air Force, Luftwaffe On a bombing mission to Berlin the Eighth Air Force dispatched the 1st and 2nd Air Divisions, comprising 95th, 100th and 390th Bomb Groups. The B-17 gunners claimed 97 German fighters on this mission. American fighters claimed a further 82 destroyed. German losses amounted to 66. German claims amounted to 108 bombers and 20 fighters. USAAF losses were 69 bombers and 11 fighters.

14 June 1944 United States Army Air Force During the Oil Campaign of World War II fifteen P-38 Lightning escorts from 49th Squadron, 14 FG was engaged by 32 Bf 109G-6s from the 101. Honi Légvédelmi Vadászrepülő Osztály, Royal Hungarian Air Force over central Hungary. American fighter pilots reported 13 Bf 109s destroyed, 1 probable destroyed and 5 damaged. In the preliminary report the Hungarian fighter pilots filed claims for twelve probably destroyed P-38s, and ultimately filed claims for seven; five were eventually claimed confirmed.
The actual losses of the day: five P-38s were shot down, with pilots MIA, two were severely damaged while several aircraft were lightly damaged; one Bf 109G was destroyed in air combat (pilot KIA), one Bf 109G destroyed during forced landing as a result of air combat (pilot safe); one Bf 109G damaged during a landing accident.

18 June 1944 Luftwaffe The Luftwaffe claimed 39 B-24s and five P-51s shot down over Schleswig-Holstein. Just 13 B-24s and two P-51s were lost.

1944 - 1945 Luftwaffe Oberleutnant Kurt Welter, claimed perhaps 25 Mosquitoes shot down by night and two further Mosquitoes by day while flying the Me 262, adding to his previous seven Mosquito kills in "hot-rodded" Bf 109G-6/AS or Fw 190 A-8 fighters. As far as can be ascertained, three of his Me 262 claims over Mosquitoes coincide with RAF records.

1 January 1945 Luftwaffe On this date German pilots overclaimed by between 4 and 3:1 . During Operation Bodenplatte the Luftwaffe claimed 55 destroyed and 11 probably destroyed in air-to-air combat (according to document: "Fernschreiben II.JakoIc Nr.140/44 geh.vom 3.1.1945"). Other German sources (according to document: "Luftwaffenführungsstab Ic, Fremde Luftwaffen West, Nr. 1160/45 g.Kdos.vom 25.2.1945"), quote 65 claims and 12 probables. Just 31 Allied aircraft were hit. 15 were shot down in aerial combat, two were destroyed whilst on take-off and seven were damaged by enemy action. 3 of the dmaged aircraft were scrapped.

parsifal said:

1 January 1945 Luftwaffe On this date German pilots overclaimed by between 4 and 3:1 . During Operation Bodenplatte the Luftwaffe claimed 55 destroyed and 11 probably destroyed in air-to-air combat (according to document: "Fernschreiben II.JakoIc Nr.140/44 geh.vom 3.1.1945"). Other German sources (according to document: "Luftwaffenführungsstab Ic, Fremde Luftwaffen West, Nr. 1160/45 g.Kdos.vom 25.2.1945"), quote 65 claims and 12 probables. Just 31 Allied aircraft were hit. 15 were shot down in aerial combat, two were destroyed whilst on take-off and seven were damaged by enemy action. 3 of the dmaged aircraft were scrapped.

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revised:

Subsequent research has showed that these figures are relatively conservative. More aircraft of the US Ninth AF were destroyed and none of the Eighth AF aircraft present on the airfields seem to have been included. A detailed analysis of all known aircraft losses on the airfields has been made and this results in the following figures:

Single-engined a/c....Twin-engined a/c....Four-engined....Total Destroyed....Damaged total (all)
143...........................74........................15...................232........................156

This number is already considerable higher than the number listed in the HQ 2nd TAF report. As these figures are based on known individual aircraft losses, it seems logical that even these figures are conservative. For instance in these figures only 16 B-17s/B-24s and three P-51s of the Eighth AF are included and it is known that some 16 B-17s, 14 B24s, eight P-51s and two P-47s of the Eighth AF were destroyed in the attack. Including these figures and assuming that the actual losses were some 15 per cent higher than the conservative losses listed above, a total of some 290 aircraft destroyed and a further 180 damaged is achieved. This leaves the aerial claims by the German pilots and there is detailed information on only some 50 of the reported 79 aerial victories. On the other hand, relatively accurate details are available on the number of Allied aircraft destroyed in aerial combat. In fact, only 15 Allied aircraft were actually shot down by German fighters and around ten more were damaged in aerial combat. This leads to the conclusion that there was an over-claiming by the German attackers of approximately 1:3. Combining all the figures known on the actual Allied losses incurred during Bodenplatte leads to the conclusion that around 305 aircraft were destroyed and a further 190 damaged. A total number not far off the actual claims by the German pilots.

Njaco said:

"Spitfire vs Bf 109" by Tony Holmes
pg 71

"Overall during the four months of the Battle of Britain.....the Jagdwaffe lost 610 Bf 109s which compares favourably to Fighter Command's 1,023 Spitfires and Hurricanes. Of course the only targets presented to the Jagdflieger during this period were fighters, and it appears that they claimed around 770 of the aircraft lost by Fighter Command. This gave the Bf 109E pilots a favorable kill ratio of 1.2:1...."

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But lets not forget that the Luftwaffe was fighting in either a fighter sweep or escort role, while the RAF mission was heavily weighted towards bomber interception. The ratio given would be more accurately given as a fighter loss ratio. It would be difficult indeed to break down the pure fighter vs fighter encounters during BoB to get an accurate kill ratio pertaining strictly to fighters.

I have four books on BoB, the highest quoted combat related loss for RAF is 950, the lowest combat loss for Luftwaffe is 1590 (most are 1700+). That's a 1.67 to 1 positive kill ratio for RAF, worst case presented.

to throw in a little twang.

August 17, 43 mission for day/eve ops: US 8th AF reported an incredible amount of claims for both Schweinfurt and Regensburg : 288 kills for the bombers alone and another 19 kills by US P-47's. The Luftwaffe lost a total of 25 a/c. JG's 1, 2, 3, 26, 51, 54, NJG's 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 ands training unit 101. The Bf 110G units lost to B-17 combats were 8 on this date, none to US or RAF fighters. At night on the 17/18th of August, 2 Bf 110G's to Beufighters, several to landing accidents . .what's my point you say ? crosscheck everything. two more 1943/44 dates just to show how crazy the claiming system was in 43/early 44 for the bomber crews of the 8th AF . . . . and the craziness of the aerial engagements there-of. 10 October 43 terrible battle over Münster: Bombers claimed 183 Luftwaffe kills, for the losses of 30 bombers . Luftwaffe actually lost 27 fighters. 14 October 43, the other Schweinfurt battle: Bombers claimed some 186 Luftwaffe kills for losses of around 72 bombers . Luftwaffe lost 38 fighters. 11 Janaury 44, Oschersleben, Halberstadt, Brunswick battle: Bombers claimed some 228 Luftwaffe kills with 31 kills going to fighters in addition. over 60bombers shot down. Luftwaffe lost 21 fighters heavy rocket attacks by Bf 110G fighters destroy lead pathfinder and the 8th AF bomber missions seemed to head down stream from there.

overclaiming? you betcha, everybody did. but the Allies by far over-claimed leaps and bounds more then the Luftwaffe. I mean, .14 of a kill? really?