F4F wildcat Vs. Me 109

loomaluftwaffe · Mar 17, 2006

Glider said:
Have to back FJ up on this. Later faster 109's would have been a bit of a handfull but not the 109E

yeah but Zeroes entered combat when the 109F came out

FLYBOYJ · Mar 17, 2006

loomaluftwaffe said:
Glider said:

Have to back FJ up on this. Later faster 109's would have been a bit of a handfull but not the 109E

Click to expand...

yeah but Zeroes entered combat when the 109F came out

looma - listen again - WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

The Me-109F entered service in JANUARY 1941!!

A6M2 entered combat for the first time on August 19, 1940.

Study, study, study, young apprentice - you have a long way to go....

loomaluftwaffe · Mar 18, 2006

damn, the exams must have diluted me... probably thats why i came out on top

FLYBOYJ · Mar 18, 2006

loomaluftwaffe said:
damn, the exams must have diluted me... probably thats why i came out on top

Well that's good to hear - keep the grades up!!!

Soren · Mar 18, 2006

The F4F Wildcat was a match for the Me-109E, no doubt. But against the Bf-109F, the Wildcat was undoubtedly the underdog !

The Bf-109F would maneuver just as well as the Wildcat, while at the same time having a clear speed and climb advantage.

MacArther,

Going vertical against a 109 is what would spell death for the Wildcat, so forget that.

Turning is only an option against the 109E, against a 109F it will get you killed, but even then it could be dangerous, as that relies heavily upon the 109E's slats to malfunction !(But luckily they tended to do that quite often)

Diving is really the only area where the Wildcat has a clear advantage, and even then it is only against the 109E, against the 109F it will be left behind. (The 109F has more power and alot less drag)

Now remember the superior 109F already saw service in the ETO from 41-42, now imagine how the Wildcat would fair against the fighters which were patrolling the skies in 44-45.... There would be no contest what so ever !

The Bf-109's and Fw-190's would slaughter the Wildcat the same way the Corsair slaughtered the Zero in the PTO.

As for the low top speed, can you really say that a 109 patrolling late in the war would be doing so at top speed the moment it left the tarmac?

MacArther, most of the fighters in service in the ETO by 43 were already "Cruising" at higher speeds than the Wildcat's "Top Speed"

However like all other fighters, the Wildcat would be cruising most of the time as-well, and even the Me-109E was cruising at a 70-80 mph greater speed than the Wildcat.

So you see, the Wildcat wasn't fit for the ETO, not even in 1941. And by 1942 the Wildcat could be considered completely obsolete by ETO standards.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 18, 2006

Agree - The F4F/FM-2 would not be able to take on any Axis beyond the capabilities of the Me-109E.

R Leonard · Mar 19, 2006

So, which had better performance, the 109E or the 109G?

FLYBOYJ · Mar 19, 2006

R Leonard said:
So, which had better performance, the 109E or the 109G?

The G hands down....

Gnomey · Mar 20, 2006

FLYBOYJ said:
R Leonard said:

So, which had better performance, the 109E or the 109G?

Click to expand...

The G hands down....

Agreed.

R Leonard · Mar 20, 2006

Then if we go back to the beginning, it would appear that the F4F derivative FM-2 could, at the least, hold its own against the 109G, even when caught at a disadvantage, i.e., on the receiving end of an attack and outnumbered.

I would always caution against drawing a conclusion based on mere flight performance data. It is not so unusual to find that the results are not always what one might expect.

Rich

Soren · Mar 20, 2006

R Leonard said:
Then if we go back to the beginning, it would appear that the F4F derivative FM-2 could, at the least, hold its own against the 109G, even when caught at a disadvantage, i.e., on the receiving end of an attack and outnumbered.

- With better trained pilots behind the controls, against rookies probably flying with a bomber-interceptor setup, then yeah, sure there'd be a good chance it could then hold its own.

R Leonard said:
I would always caution against drawing a conclusion based on mere flight performance data. It is not so unusual to find that the results are not always what one might expect.

You said it Leonard (And I bet Saburo Sakai would agree to)

davparlr · Mar 23, 2006

When I read this topic, I said to myself "You've got to be kidding". While the F-4F-4 was a great old tub and allowed well trained Navy pilots to hold their own against the Japanese, the contempory 109E had a 40 mph top speed advantage and a 2000 ft ceiling advantage. The 109F, also a contempory, had a 70 mph top speed advantage. Manuverability (which the 109 also had) is important, but speed controls the fight parameters of entry and exit and this allows advantageous tactical strategies as the P-38 and F4U displayed in the Pacific sweeping the skies clean of more maneuverable Japanese planes. At the time of the F4F-4, spitfires were toe and nail against the 109 and the battle was pretty much of a draw (also remember, the aforementioned P-38s were struggling against the 109s). I highly doubt a British pilot (or anyone out there) would have been crazy enough to trade his spit (or even his hurricane!) for a F4F-4!

Henk · Mar 23, 2006

Bf-109 for sure.

Henk

MacArther · Mar 23, 2006

would have been crazy enough to trade his spit (or even his hurricane!) for a F4F-4!

::raises hand:: I would have!

lesofprimus · Mar 23, 2006

And u'd have been dead as nuts....

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Mar 23, 2006

davparlr said:
When I read this topic, I said to myself "You've got to be kidding". While the F-4F-4 was a great old tub and allowed well trained Navy pilots to hold their own against the Japanese, the contempory 109E had a 40 mph top speed advantage and a 2000 ft ceiling advantage. The 109F, also a contempory, had a 70 mph top speed advantage. Manuverability (which the 109 also had) is important, but speed controls the fight parameters of entry and exit and this allows advantageous tactical strategies as the P-38 and F4U displayed in the Pacific sweeping the skies clean of more maneuverable Japanese planes. At the time of the F4F-4, spitfires were toe and nail against the 109 and the battle was pretty much of a draw (also remember, the aforementioned P-38s were struggling against the 109s). I highly doubt a British pilot (or anyone out there) would have been crazy enough to trade his spit (or even his hurricane!) for a F4F-4!

Good post and I agree with you. Welcome to the site as well.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 23, 2006

davparlr said:
When I read this topic, I said to myself "You've got to be kidding". While the F-4F-4 was a great old tub and allowed well trained Navy pilots to hold their own against the Japanese, the contempory 109E had a 40 mph top speed advantage and a 2000 ft ceiling advantage. The 109F, also a contempory, had a 70 mph top speed advantage. Manuverability (which the 109 also had) is important, but speed controls the fight parameters of entry and exit and this allows advantageous tactical strategies as the P-38 and F4U displayed in the Pacific sweeping the skies clean of more maneuverable Japanese planes. At the time of the F4F-4, spitfires were toe and nail against the 109 and the battle was pretty much of a draw (also remember, the aforementioned P-38s were struggling against the 109s). I highly doubt a British pilot (or anyone out there) would have been crazy enough to trade his spit (or even his hurricane!) for a F4F-4!

Welcome davparlr, you bring up some valid points, but the main thing here is despite the 40 mph speed advantage of the -109E the F4F turned better and had a lighter wing loading, in a traditional dogfight the F4F could give the E a run for its money. In a traditional WW2 dogfight that 40 mph advantage isn't going to mean much unless your running or chasing...

The -109 would have to stay "in the vertical" and did have the advantage of breaking off the battle at his choosing. As long as the F4F forced the -109 to slow down and fight on its terms, there was a challenge (despite the -109s LE slats). The 109F is a different story.....

A Spit or an F4F? I'd take the Spit anyday, even the 109. The point here is the F4F could present a challenge to the Me-109E

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Mar 23, 2006

Ill agree with you on that aswell FBJ. If the Wildcat was not a pushover for a Zero it was not going to be one for 109 either. It was a good solid fighter.

davparlr · Mar 24, 2006

The F-4F was indeed a good solid fighter and performed heroically at Wake Island, Midway and Guadal Canal when the Navy, Marines and Army had their backs to the wall and were fighting greater forces of some the most experienced and capable aircrews in the world. The combination of F-4Fs and Naval and Marine pilots (and some Army pilots with their planes) are unsung heros who, practically alone, handed the superior Japanese forces their first defeats. I am sure the F-4F with one of these experienced Naval or Marine pilots would provide a handful for any fighter in WWII, but I still believe that speed and altitude equal high energy levels and with equally talented pilots, the one with the higher energy level has the options to defeat the other, assuming the air vehicles are reasonably close in capability. Otherwise, biplanes would rule.

While the F-4F did hold its own against he Zero, it did not do so well that the Navy did not go scurring for a better plane. And, I would suspect that there was more than a few F-4F pilots that were glad, and a bit relieved, to transfer to the F-6F.

I have just come across this site and was impressed with the level technical expertise displayed by, er, most of the participants. I have learned a lot, and I thought I knew everything! I just couldn't keep my mouth shut.

lesofprimus · Mar 24, 2006

And, I would suspect that there was more than a few F-4F pilots that were glad, and a bit relieved, to transfer to the F-6F.

And to the F4U...

F4F wildcat Vs. Me 109

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