Fire in California

[evangilder]

Rubbish. There was a blue ribbon commission back in 2003 after the disastrous San Diego fire. A BIG part of the recommendations made by a neutral commission were NOT done. The firefighters of Southern California don't have the resources they need to effectively fight fires and we end up leasing the equipment from Canada to get the job done, and even then it is the bare minimum. When the fires began, the C-130s and all air resources that could be spared should have been here to stomp these fires out. EVERYONE knew that a fire starting in the weather conditions we had when it began was big trouble. The conditions were absolutely perfect for a big friggin mess. While bureaucrats sat on their hands and did nothing, hot weather, single digit humidity and the Santa Ana winds turned Southern California into a pool of acrid smoke. Hundreds of homes are now gone, people left homeless with what they can carry and air that is almost unbreathable.

If the resources that were recommended by the blue ribbon commission 4 years ago had been here, there would have been less damage. Firefighters that are in reactive mode for 2-3 days are not an effective force. The should only be in reactive mode for 8-10 hours before going on the offensive. The leadership on this has been terrible, and many people have suffered because of incompetence.

 

[Erich]

another big problem is the far ranging eyes for the fires is antiquidated in a huge way. Like Eric said the main craft that needs to be close at hand is in Canada or up here in Oregon or ......... ? yeah where is when you need them, nowhere close that is a fact. i can talk of this as well. here we are in dry forested canyons in south Oregon, the nearest and get this as we have had the biggest fire in the USA history (so far) ~ where are our water /retardent bombers ?..........at least 100 miles to our east. could this be a political move ? not sure but a fools move as a fact. Cali has had this reaccuring problem every darn year, why don't officials get it ??

 

[Erich]

here is the straight up poop for the chaos :

National Interagency Fire Center

 

[comiso90]

If the resources that were recommended by the blue ribbon commission 4 years ago had been here, there would have been less damage. Firefighters that are in reactive mode for 2-3 days are not an effective force. The should only be in reactive mode for 8-10 hours before going on the offensive. The leadership on this has been terrible, and many people have suffered because of incompetence.

I've seen a number of stories extolling the success of their disaster relief efforts. Why are the good at it?

poor development means lots of flooding - they've had a lot of practice
no man power shortage
a one party system.... VERY little beuracracy..


Certainly not an argument for communism but an example how a smaller government can act more quickly.


People, politics ease China's disaster evacuation efforts - CNN.com

# Officials: Krosa causes widespread destruction in eastern China, but no deaths
# Red Cross official: One-party system helps keep government in sync
# Chinese officials evacuated 1.4 million people, provided tents, food and water
# Frequency, range of disasters prompt numerous contingency plans in China



.

 

[Thorlifter]

I'm sure there will be lawsuits and screaming over how the government did nothing, just like people screamed about Katrina.

I can only say this. Eric and you other west coast guys..........stay safe.

 

[comiso90]

My friends backyard in Irvine.

 

[syscom3]

My friends backyard in Irvine.

I bet he was coughing up black stuff from his lungs and throat.

 

[comiso90]

yeah miserable

He has 2 small kids too... I told him the family could live with me if they need too.

 

[Erich]

dang that is what it was literally some 20 years ago here, the surrounding hills all burning, our town was just about evac'd. We lived with that burning embers over us and sprinklers on roofs from first week of August till mid November every stinkin hot day till the rains and winds finally washed the scurge out.....

get the heck outta there...... oh wow cool man my neighbors house is on fire....sadly some folk just don't and will not get it.

 

[comiso90]

"Naw it will never happen to me."


I'd be gone too... just to avoid monster traffic jams.

.

 

[evangilder]

This is the kind of bureaucracy that is simply ridiculous:

As Calif. fires burned, copters grounded

By AARON C. DAVIS and MICHAEL R. BLOOD, Associated Press Writers 38 minutes ago

As wildfires were charging across Southern California, nearly two dozen water-dropping helicopters and two massive cargo planes sat idly by, grounded by government rules and bureaucracy.

How much the aircraft would have helped will never be known, but their inability to provide quick assistance raises troubling questions about California's preparations for a fire season that was widely expected to be among the worst on record.

It took as long as a day for Navy, Marine and California National Guard helicopters to get clearance early this week, in part because state rules require all firefighting choppers to be accompanied by state forestry "fire spotters" who coordinate water or retardant drops. By the time those spotters arrived, the powerful Santa Ana winds stoking the fires had made it too dangerous to fly.

The National Guard's C-130 cargo planes, among the most powerful aerial firefighting weapons, never were slated to help. The reason: They've yet to be outfitted with tanks needed to carry thousands of gallons of fire retardant, though that was promised four years ago.

"The weight of bureaucracy kept these planes from flying, not the heavy winds," Republican U.S. Rep. Dana Rohrabacher told The Associated Press. "When you look at what's happened, it's disgusting, inexcusable foot-dragging that's put tens of thousands of people in danger."

Rohrabacher and other members of California's congressional delegation are demanding answers about aircraft deployment. And some fire chiefs have grumbled that a quick deployment of aircraft could have helped corral many of the wildfires that quickly flared out of control and have so far burned 500,000 acres from Malibu to the Mexican border.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and other state officials have defended the state's response, saying the intense winds prevented a more timely air attack.

"Anyone that is complaining about the planes just wants to complain," Schwarzenegger replied angrily to a question Wednesday. "The fact is that we could have all the planes in the world here — we have 90 aircraft here and six that we got especially from the federal government — and they can't fly because of the wind."

Indeed, winds reaching 100 mph helped drive the flames and made it exceedingly dangerous to fly. Still, four state helicopters and two from the Navy were able to take off Monday while nearly two dozen others stayed grounded.

Thomas Eversole, executive director of the American Helicopter Services Aerial Firefighting Association, a Virginia-based nonprofit that serves as a liaison between helicopter contractors and federal agencies, said valuable time was lost.

"The basis for the initial attack helicopters is to get there when the fire is still small enough that you can contain it," Eversole said. "If you don't get there in time, you quickly run the risk of these fires getting out of control."

The first of the 15 or so fires started around midnight Saturday. By Sunday afternoon, fires were raging in Los Angeles, San Diego and Orange counties.

At the request of firefighters on the ground, at 4 p.m. Sunday the state Office of Emergency Services asked the National Guard to supply four helicopters. Under state rules, a California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection "spotter" must accompany each military and National Guard helicopter to coordinate water drops.

The spotters have 24 hours to report for duty, and it took nearly all that time for them and the National Guard crews to assemble. By the time they were ready to go, the winds had made it unsafe to fly.

The helicopters finally got off the ground Tuesday.

Mike Padilla, aviation chief for the forestry department, acknowledged the Guard's helicopters were ready to fly before the spotters arrived. He said state officials were surprised.

"Typically we're waiting for them to get crews," Padilla said.

The delay was even longer for Navy and Marine helicopters. They were ready to fly Monday morning but didn't get airborne until Wednesday morning, a period when the acreage that burned quadrupled to more than 250,000 and the number of homes destroyed jumped from 34 to more than 700.

Republican U.S. Rep. Brian Bilbray was among the lawmakers who learned late Tuesday night in a briefing with state officials that 19 military helicopters were not in use because there were no spotters.

Alarmed, he quickly helped broker an agreement to waive the spotter requirement, allowing flights to begin Wednesday.

"We told them, 'You don't want the public to be asking why these units weren't flying while we had houses burning,'" Bilbray told the AP.

The criticism helped prompt the forestry department's director, Ruben Grijalva, to abandon the state's long-standing policy to have a spotter aboard each aircraft and instead let one spotter orchestrate drops for a squadron of three helicopters.

"I directed them to do whatever was necessary to get those other military assets into operation," Grijalva said.

He said he could not explain why more spotters were not deployed before the flames spread to ensure that every aircraft ready to fly could take off.

Padilla said state spotters do training exercises with the Navy and National Guard and are used to working with them on fires. That's not the case with the Marines, so when helicopters from that branch were made available, the state was caught off guard and had no spotters available.

Regardless, he said, safety — not availability of spotters — was the overriding concern in determining when to allow aircraft into the skies.

"I'm not going to risk people's lives for a bunch of vegetation," Padilla said. "We know you have lives and property at stake, but you don't throw away firefighter lives like that."

The C-130 saga is a much different story.

More than a decade ago, Congress ordered replacement of the aging removable tanks for the military planes because of safety concerns and worries that they wouldn't fit with new-model aircraft. California's firefighting C-130 unit is one of four the Pentagon has positioned across the country to respond to fire disasters.

New tanks were designed, but they failed to fit into the latest C-130s. Designers were ordered back to the drawing board. Republican Rep. Elton Gallegy said Congress was assured the new tanks would be ready by 2003.

Four years later, the U.S. Forest Service and Air Force have yet to approve the revised design. Air Force spokeswoman Capt. Paula Kurtz said "technical and design difficulties" have delayed the program.

Rohrabacher and Gallegy are angered by the delay, which has left no C-130s capable of fighting fires on the West Coast. The last of the older-model C-130s with an original tank was retired by the California National Guard last year.

"It's an absolute tragedy, an unacceptable tragedy," Gallegy said.

The situation meant that rather than deploying C-130s from inside the state, Schwarzenegger was forced to ask Secretary of Defense Robert Gates to call in the six remaining older C-130s from other states as far away as North Carolina.

None of them began fighting the fires until Wednesday afternoon.

In the meantime, the state relied mostly on smaller retardant tankers that carry about a third of the C-130's 3,000-gallon capacity.

Gallegy said such firepower was sorely needed earlier.

"I have actually flown in one and pressed the button," he said. "I know what they can do."

As Calif. fires burned, copters grounded - Yahoo! News

 

[enven]

I am in Cerritos, CA / Long Beach Area...Same mix of fires/wind/ash.

I work in Irvine so I am dealing with the brunt of it from the South/SE area...Really sucks.

 

[Erich]

Eric this is as much of a joke as we had in the what once was protected Kalmiopsis wilderness/Biscuit fires I have spoken of. Politicians sitting on their thumbs for days whether to send the needed supplies, crews and reinforcements to handle the blaze. Insanity sure crept in and even after the fire pumped up an additional 10,000 acres one night they still told the fire-forest service to monitor for another week...............idiots. !

I do see our local big Erickson Crane Heli's in the air above you. they are huge and look something out of a sci-fi flick, they can move mtns nearly and really load up the huge buckets of water that is desperate in so Cali right now to put an end to this destruction. hope they catch the morn arsons and make a public hanging

 

[comiso90]

I am in Cerritos, CA / Long Beach Area...Same mix of fires/wind/ash.

I work in Irvine so I am dealing with the brunt of it from the South/SE area...Really sucks.

I grew up in LB near El Dorado Park.. left when I was 21...

Whats the closest Fire...? Irvine?

 

[Torch]

Here's a kicker. Most of our twin bombers can carry 1200 gals of water, the Canadian DC6s can hold 3000 gals. The Russians have the IL 76 water bomber which can hold 12000 gals and does an amazing job of putting out fires without retardent. Even the Greeks requested them. Problem is the Forest Service does not want to use them for reasons like "it dumps too much water", "needs too long of a runaway(which is bullshit)". They also have the amphib twin jet BE-200 which can fill its tank in 14 secs in up to 4 or 5 ft swells. The political crap is unbelievable.

 

[renrich]

It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that these fires in CA were set by Bush and his minions in order to alleviate the oversupply of housing in this country!

 

[Torch]

Brilliant strategy.

 

[ccheese]

It is obvious to anyone with half a brain that these fires in CA were set by Bush and his minions in order to alleviate the oversupply of housing in this country!

Are you sh!tting me ? Get real !!

Charles

 

[Erich]

ah hmmmmmmm ren have you been smokin some bad Colorado doobie ?

from my bro this morn :

Fire update. Two fires remain in the SD area. One is 20% contained and
the other is 45%. California has lost around 1800 homes to all of this.
Insurance companies must be going crazy.
Air quality is getting alot better. I can actually go for a run tonight
and not go into convulsions.
J K are at school today helping the clean up process with the soot,
ash and debris from the winds. Fun!

 

[Torch]

I kinda took his comment as sarcastic. I hope ren was'nt serious.