Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

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OK - Just got off the phone with my father in law - just for the record he was a production test pilot on the F-15, F-5 and was the chief production test pilot on the B-1B. he also did other flight test work at Edwards...

"Dad" told me that Inertial Coupling usually happens at higher mach numbers on aircraft with wingspans matching or smaller than the fuselage length. Jet aircraft could experience this at lower speeds if an extremely high roll rate was induced at a very high angle of attack - he pointed out the F-16 and Mirage could be made to experience this, with the Mirage being a bit more unforgiving. He did state that in his experience with a recip or propeller driven aircraft, this condition would certainly have to be induced especially at lower speeds and high AoA as engine torque tends to prevent this from happening. With that said, one could INDUCE Inertial Coupling on a recip aircraft at lower speeds (He pointed out that aerobatic performers do this all the time in Pitts).

In the case of uncommanded Inertial Coupling on a recip aircraft, he stated he doubts it would be a factor unless the aircraft is at a high altitude and is configured to do so (small wings, long fuselage).

I brought up the 190D and his feelings is the aircraft would have to be close to a high mach number (high altitude). He did ask "didn't that thing have guns in the wings?" When I told him yes he went on to say that the weight in the wings would probably help in preventing Interial Coupling, even if induced. His feelings were that even though the 190D had a short wingspan when compared to its fuselage, uncommanded Inertial coupling would be unlikely.

BTW - he said he doesn't recall hearing about any recip, propeller driven or WW2 aircraft with any Inertial Coupling tendency, in fact he confirmed, in the test pilot community Inertial coupling is thought of as a "Post WW2" thing. The first theoretical publication addressing Inertial Coupling wasn't published until 1948 (William Phillips of NACA).
 
You know what I think is funny. Someone who bases there whole knowledge on how an aircraft flies is telling a real pilot (FBJ) that he does not understand Inertial Coupling. Sim Pilots....:lol:
 
we've covered this already - sims are just as real as flying real planes. In fact, they are more realistic :lol:
 
Oh come on guys... when your flying a Sim you can feel the forces of the wind, you can feel the vibrations, you can feel the control, you are the king and master. Real Pilots suck!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol:
 
Oh come on guys... when your flying a Sim you can feel the forces of the wind, you can feel the vibrations, you can feel the control, you are the king and master. Real Pilots suck!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol:

Chris - don't forget about the sweet smell of jet exhaust! You know - I can't even land a plane in microsoft flight simulator. I crash the F'ing thing EVERY SINGLE TIME.
 
Chris - don't forget about the sweet smell of jet exhaust!

Yeap everytime we cranked up the engines and the wind was blowing in my direction I would allways saw over the ICS "I love the smell of burning JP8 in the morning." :lol:

Okay okay it is not as funny as the famous line from Apocolypse Now...:lol:

mkloby said:
You know - I can't even land a plane in microsoft flight simulator. I crash the F'ing thing EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Neither can I.
 
You can not compare landing a sim plane to a real plane. I dont care how realistic sim fans think it is.

Oh well I dont want to get into this whole discussion again sim vs. flying. We have covered it eneogh.
 
Remember when you were 14 and you kept that Penthouse under your bed?
That's a sim. And when you finally got Debbie Sue into the backseat of your Trans Am? That was real...
 
:lol:

Yeah. Definitely no comparison.
 
I'm hearing general agreement that the Fw-190D-9 was clearly superior to the P-51D at altitudes below 25000 ft.

It is also generally accepted that at altitudes over 25,000ft (certainly 30,000ft), the P-47D was superior to the Mustang.

Was the P-47D superior to the Fw-190D-9 over 30,000ft?
 
The P-47D went the fastest at 30,000 feet with a maximum speed of 429 mph. Like the Mustang, it didn't go so fast at lower altitudes. The P-47M, if it had been around in large numbers, certainly would have given the FW pilots the shivers. A regular P-47D pilot talks of about the new coolness of the P-47M.

yank7
These P-47M were real screamers. They added over 500 more horsepower under the hood. The 56th Fighter Group had gotten some of these, and we lucked out as well. Unfortunately they were not fitted with under wing racks so we had to use them in a strafing role only. We flew them along with 3 other P-47D's as a sort of an escort for the strafing unit.

I immediately laid claim to one. Performance of the P-47M-1-RE included a maximum speed of 400 mph at 10,000 feet, 453 mph at 25,000 feet, and 470 mph at 30,000 feet. Initial climb rate was 3500 feet per minute at 5000 feet and 2650 feet per minute at 20,000 feet. Range (clean) was 560 miles at 10,000 feet. Armament was six or eight 0.50-inch machine guns with 267 or 425 rpg. Weights were 10,432 pounds empty. 13,275 pounds normal loaded, and 15,500 pounds maximum. Dimension were wingspan 40 feet 9 3/8 inches, length 36 feet 4 inches, height 14 feet 7 inches, and wing area 308 square feet.

After my first or second combat mission with ``Wonderful Winnie" number three I met up with some P-51 Mustang pilots. By this time of the war escort planes were often freed from escort duty after their bombers had headed home. This left them available to attack ground targets and enemy planes heading back their bases. These guys thought they were real ``Hot Shots" and some of them were. A lot more were rookies in a hot plane that the Mustang certainly was. It did have a deficiency in the ground attack role. It had a water-cooled Rolls Royce engine. If it took any kind of hit in the cooling system, you had better look for a place to land or check your parachute. The engine would overheat and seize up in no time. Our P-47's had to be practically blown apart to go down. Guys, including me, came back with pistons shot out and the engine still kept going.

This group of guys came over as we headed back to our field. We gave them a wave and I got them on the radio. My sense of larceny got the best of me again and I challenged them to a race. There were four of them in this flight and I said, `` I `ll bet you $50.00 buck a piece I can beat you to the next town?" These guys thought I was nuts and immediately agreed. We exchanged particulars so someone could collect the debt. My Wingman climbed up along with me to 10000 feet to call the start of the race. We lined up as best we could and my Wingman gave the go. The P-51s's jumped out in front as I crammed the throttle forward. Slowly but inexorably I started to gain and pass these guys. I saw the look of incredulity on their faces as I pulled along side and passed each one. By the time we passed the outskirts of the town I was way out front. These guys were about ready to chew nails when they caught up to me again. No one had told them about this new plane and I certainly wasn't going to enlighten them. To their credit, a week or so later I got a letter in the mail with 200 clams in it. I managed to pull this trick several more times before guys got wise. I sent the money home to Winnie we put it to good use.

So, to the Mustang pilots out there, many thanks. Winnie and I appreciated your generosity.
 
soren this is great stuff where do you find this information, i have need of it for some discussions in other forums ...

thanks in advance

rich

Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

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Fw-190 D-9 Statistics:

Engine: Junkers Jumo 213A1 with MW-50 boost.
Power: 2,240 HP.
Max. Speed: 704 km/h. (438 mph.)
Max. Climb: 1110 m/min (3,642 ft/min.)
Empty Weight: 3,490 kg. (7,694 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 4,293 kg. (9,464 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 4,839 kg. (10,670 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 10.50 m. (34.4 ft.)
Wing-Area: 18.3 sq.m. (197 sq.ft.)
Armament: 2x 13mm HMG's (MG 131) 2x 20mm cannons (MG 151/20).

Fw-190 D-9 Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-loading *Loaded*: 234.59 kg/sq.m. (48 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 6.02.
Airfoil: NACA 23015.3 - NACA 23009.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 15.3% Tip= 9% .
Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.52 .

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 154.33 kg/sq.m. (31.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 1.91 kg/hp. (4.22 lbs/hp.)

Fw-190 D-9 Additional features:

-Bubble-canopy Flettner Tabs.
-Inclined seat position for better G-load resistance "Kommandogerat".

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P-51D Mustang Statistics:

Engine: Packard Merlin V-1650-7.
Power: 1,790 HP.
Max.Speed: 703 km/h (437mph).
Max. Climb: 1011 m/min. (3,320 ft/min)
Empty Weight: 3,466 kg. (7,641 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 5,034 kg. (11,100 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 5,489 kg. (12,100 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 11.3 m. (37.07 ft.)
Wing-Area: 21.64 sq.m. (233 sq.ft.)
Armament: 6x .50 cal HMG's (M2).

P-51D Mustang Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-Loading *Loaded*: 232.62 kg/sq.m. (47.6 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 5.81 .
Airfoil: "Laminar" NAA/NACA 45-100 - NAA/NACA 45-100.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.8 or 15% Tip= 12%.
Wing CL-max: 1.28 .

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 181.73 kg/sq.m. (37.18 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 2.81 kg/hp. (6.2 lbs/hp.)

P-51D Mustang Additional features:

-Laminar wing Tear-shaped canopy.
-Gyro-Gunsight.

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Aerodynamic Facts:

Airfoil Thickness Ratio - Higher is better.
Airfoil CL-max - Higher is better.
Wing Aspect Ratio - Higher is better.

Lift-loading - Lower is better.
Power-loading - Lower is better.

Wing Aspect ratio info:
High aspect ratio wings have long spans (like high performance gliders), while low aspect ratio wings have either short spans (like the F-16 fighter) or thick chords (like the Space Shuttle). There is a component of the drag of an aircraft called induced drag which depends inversely on the aspect ratio. A higher aspect ratio wing has a lower drag and a higher lift than a lower aspect ratio wing. All else being equal, the higher the wing aspect ratio, the higher the wing Cl-max is also going to be.

Laminar wing info:
Laminar flow wings lowered the drag, but this came at the cost of lower lift, especially under high G loads. A Laminar flow wing will stall earlier and more violently than a conventional wing.
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It is easy to understand why the Fw-190D-9 was considered a nasty handful for the P-51D !
 

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