Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

[Erich]

I think I need to make some clarification here on the knights of the Sturmgruppe........

first one was the A-6/MK then the A-7MK or R2 that it was known later in I./JG 11.

The A-8/R2 came into play and was the standard SturmFw with all armor and with or without the mg cowling faired over the the mg 131's removed.

There was never an R7 varinat on operations.

The R8 variant was just like the R2 except in November 44 end it was to replace the R2 which it never did, and the R8 hads the mg 131 fairings as standard.

IV.Sturm/JG 3 kept the canopy Scheuklappen or blinkers as we call them, but II.Sturm/JG 4 removed them after their second air battle in September 44 due to sever icing and II.Sturm/JG 300 removed them from the start for better visibility. All 3 Sturmgruppen had the R2 and later the R8's in their line-ups.

E ~ remember the R2 had ALL the armor in place just like the R8. Early shots of JG 3 Sturms show four 2cm weapons and no canopy armor in June of 44 due to jabo missions in Normandie, when withdrawn from those and into the Reich they immediately were outfitted with all the heavy steel plating. JG 300 Sturms did not get this till July 44's end. Some pilots at their wishes still preferred the outboard 2cm weapons to be left in place........

 

[KraziKanuK]

Oops Soren, that is what happens before one has that 1st cup of morning coffee.

 

[Soren]

Hey, no worries.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Sometimes when you think about it the FW the allies faced the most was the FW190-A version. It's top speed was below 400 mph. That means the P-51 had a large advantage in speed. That's the FW the P-51 pilots had to worry about most, and thats why the P-51 can have the reputation of being faster and better at high altitudes than the FW in records and logs of American pilots of WWII. If the FW-D faced them in the same numbers in 1942, 43' 44' with a top speed equal to the P-51 Mustang, they might have had a rougher time. The FW-D didn't start doing much until the air war for Germany was half lost in late 1944.

Sure it's just running over the mill again, but I still hold that the P-51D was superior to FW-A. It outperformed it in many ways. And thats what counted since the Bombers were attacked mainly by the FW 190A and the
p-51D was the one that had to do it.


But lets not forget the good old P-47 in 1943. They also did great agains't the FW 190A.

Frankly, if WWII had dragged on, and the Germans had managed to keep their Luftwaffe intact, and had bought in the Ta-154, and the P-51H was having a tough time, the US Air Force could have just bought a couple of Bearcats from the Navy. The Bearcat was equal to the German Ta, and had a faster speed. Thanks to our pirating of the FW design, the Bearcat wouldn't have been inferior to the Ta. Logically though, everyone would have switched to fighter jets by 1946. And there the germans had an advantage in jet aircraft.

 

[lesofprimus]

The Bearcat wouldnt have had the legs for escort missions...

 

[davparlr]

Wow! I've missed a great thread. I wonder where I have been. Fighting the P-51H-Ta-152H battle, I guess.

So many questions to address. I did a little comparison of the performance of the P-51D, from spitfireperformance data, and the Fw-190D-9 from Soren data and I came up with this comparison chart. Some of the charts were difficult to read and there maybe some interpretation error but I think it is pretty accurate.

At 25k feet
P-51 max airspeed 420 mph, rate of climb 2100 ft/min
Fw-190D-9 max airspeed 428 mph, rate of climb 2208 ft/min

At 30k feet
P-51 max airspeed 440 mph, rate of climb 1700 ft/min
Fw-190D-9 max airspeed 406, rate of climb 1476 ft/min

At 33k ft(10km)
P-51 max airspeed 418 mph, rate of climb 1250 ft/min
Fw-190D-9 max airspeed 391, rate of climb 984 ft/min

At 35k ft
P-51D max airspeed 408, rate of climb 1000 ft/min
Fw-190D-9 max airspeed 385, rate of climb 690 ft/min

Service ceiling
P-51D 41,600ft
Fw-190D-9 39,370ft

And since turns are really horizontal climbs, it is probably likely the P-51D could out turn the Fw-190D-9 at the higher altitudes, as has been asserted in previous entries.

So, examining the data, it appears the two aircraft are pretty well equivalent at 25k feet but the Dora was starting to run out of wind. Above 25k feet, the Mustang clearly had advantage in speed and climbing ability and could engage and disengage at will and, therefore, could control the battle.

The Dora was clearly superior to the P-51D below 25k. But surrendering the high ground is tough way to win a battle, even in the air. The Sabres were able to do that in Korea but they did it with superior training and superior pilots.

Inconclusion, I assert that, until the advent of the Ta-152H, the P-51 dominated the skies over Germany above 25k feet (but not below) and certainly did its share in opening the German skies to horrendous calamity, and would have done so even if the sides were equal in quantity and training. To me, that is what the tape says.

And the real greatness of the P-51 was that it could do this after flying a looong way.

I know you guys think the Dora is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it certainly had a weakness at higher altitude. So like many other aircraft, including the P-51D, it was great in a certain envelope and vunerable out of it.

 

[davparlr]

Thanks to our pirating of the FW design, the Bearcat wouldn't have been inferior to the Ta.

That answers a question I have always had. Why did Grumman changed to a rugged radial engined fighter instead of just developing a aircraft like they had before? Oh wait, THEY DID!

If this is pirating, then look at the Hughes H-1. The may have been inspired but I doubt that there was any significant pirating. At least none worse than any other manufacturer, Allied or Axis.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

True. But you gotta give some credit to the Germans for the Bearcat while not at all (I think?) for the P-51 Mustang which was an American invention out of American minds.

 

[lesofprimus]

The Brits had a lot to say about the P-51 as well Welch...

 

[davparlr]

The Brits had a lot to say about the P-51 as well Welch...

Little to the airframe, other than ordering it, but the Merlin certainly was the key to its success.

 

[Chingachgook]

davparlr,

That makes sense of the situation. The Stang had control. Even if it had to go below 25k it would carry a lot of E with it (but I would not want to be a 51 level @15k if there was a Dora @ 20k.

Alt is everything - or so says many a dead spitfire pilot.

 

[Soren]

Wow! I've missed a great thread. I wonder where I have been. Fighting the P-51H-Ta-152H battle, I guess.

So many questions to address. I did a little comparison of the performance of the P-51D, from spitfireperformance data, and the Fw-190D-9 from Soren data and I came up with this comparison chart. Some of the charts were difficult to read and there maybe some interpretation error but I think it is pretty accurate.

At 25k feet
P-51 max airspeed 420 mph, rate of climb 2100 ft/min
Fw-190D-9 max airspeed 428 mph, rate of climb 2208 ft/min

At 30k feet
P-51 max airspeed 440 mph, rate of climb 1700 ft/min
Fw-190D-9 max airspeed 406, rate of climb 1476 ft/min

At 33k ft(10km)
P-51 max airspeed 418 mph, rate of climb 1250 ft/min
Fw-190D-9 max airspeed 391, rate of climb 984 ft/min

At 35k ft
P-51D max airspeed 408, rate of climb 1000 ft/min
Fw-190D-9 max airspeed 385, rate of climb 690 ft/min

Service ceiling
P-51D 41,600ft
Fw-190D-9 39,370ft

And since turns are really horizontal climbs, it is probably likely the P-51D could out turn the Fw-190D-9 at the higher altitudes, as has been asserted in previous entries.

So, examining the data, it appears the two aircraft are pretty well equivalent at 25k feet but the Dora was starting to run out of wind. Above 25k feet, the Mustang clearly had advantage in speed and climbing ability and could engage and disengage at will and, therefore, could control the battle.

The Dora was clearly superior to the P-51D below 25k. But surrendering the high ground is tough way to win a battle, even in the air. The Sabres were able to do that in Korea but they did it with superior training and superior pilots.

Inconclusion, I assert that, until the advent of the Ta-152H, the P-51 dominated the skies over Germany above 25k feet (but not below) and certainly did its share in opening the German skies to horrendous calamity, and would have done so even if the sides were equal in quantity and training. To me, that is what the tape says.

And the real greatness of the P-51 was that it could do this after flying a looong way.

I know you guys think the Dora is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it certainly had a weakness at higher altitude. So like many other aircraft, including the P-51D, it was great in a certain envelope and vunerable out of it.

While I agree completely with almost all of what you have said Davparlr, I must contest your claim that the P-51D ruled the skies over 25k before the advent of the Ta-152, for it certainly did not. The Bf-109K had a considerable performance advantage at both low and high alt over the P-51D.

Bf-109K performance at alt:

25k ft = 720 km/h (447 mph) / Rads open: 13.5 m/s (2,657 ft/min) - Rads closed: 15.5 m/s (3,051 ft/min)

30k ft = 702 km/h (438 mph) / Rads open: 9.7 m/s (1,909 ft/min) - Rads closed: 11.7 m/s (2,303 ft/min)

33k ft = 690 km/h (431 mph) / Rads open: 7.5 m/s (1,476 ft/min) - Rads closed: 9.5 m/s (1,870 ft/min)

35k ft = 679 km/h (424 mph) / Rads open: 6 m/s (1,181 ft/min) - Rads closed: 8 m/s (1,574 ft/min)

Service Ceiling: 12.7 km (41,6k ft)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

So like many other aircraft, including the P-51D, it was great in a certain envelope and vunerable out of it.

That I completely agree with. The Dora was superior below 25K but was only supposed to be a stop gap until the Ta-152 came on board, which was a true high altitude fighter.

 

[Chingachgook]

Hi Soren,

Which 109K and at what ata? What time period? Last 2 weeks of the war or start of K service from Oct '44?

"Unfortunately, flight trials of Me 109 Ks appear not to exist. The following 109 K curves were produced by Messerschmitt's Project Bureau at Oberammergau... ...simplistic estimates... " (from Williams)

P-51B running 18lbs boost pretty fast at all alts. 25lbs they are just wicked fast. Did P-51 run 150octane like the Spits did in last year of war?

 

[Soren]

Hi Soren,

Which 109K and at what ata? What time period? Last 2 weeks of the war or start of K service from Oct '44?

"Unfortunately, flight trials of Me 109 Ks appear not to exist. The following 109 K curves were produced by Messerschmitt's Project Bureau at Oberammergau... ...simplistic estimates... " (from Williams)

P-51B running 18lbs boost pretty fast at all alts. 25lbs they are just wicked fast. Did P-51 run 150octane like the Spits did in last year of war?

Simplistic estimates ?! Only Mike Williams could put it that way

I'd advice you to take any of his comments and claims on German fighter performance with a BIG grain of salt.

Fact is the estimates are most probably far more advanced than any British estimates, as the Germans were pretty far ahead in aerodynamics.

Oh btw, the estimates are also most like very conservative, an underestimate of true performance, as even in 43 with even less power and aerodynamic cleanliness available, a Bf-109 F-4 achieved 670 km/h during test-flights;

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Little to the airframe, other than ordering it, but the Merlin certainly was the key to its success.

How stupid of me. Without the Merlin the Mustang would have been just on the level with the P-39 and P-40. Thank you Brits!


It's pretty interesting how the P-51 went the fastest at just about the altitude the B-17 needed it. Coincidence or did the designers have in mind that the Merlin engine worked best at the altitude of 30,000 feet?

 

[Chingachgook]

Soren,

Sorry that I came off critical of your post - was not my intent. Just asking questions.

Full disclosure; Mike is a friend. Maybe there is some bias there, but there is also some good info on his site - pilot reports/test data that I can not find easily elsewhere - But I will look for truth where ever I can find it. I do not think Mike was questioning the info - just stating that there was no flight test data. Yes perhaps the estimates were conservative, but who knows? ( lots of variables there) but they were still estimates - and so even you question if they show the K in the best light.

In any event, there is a big picture story behind these birds - bigger than any test data or performance estimates.

I agree wholeheartedly on the F-4. I fly in FighterAce (don't laugh please), and I know that the F-4 was undermodel'd there - kinda wrecked the game for me. If you kill an F-4 with a Vb Trop in FA you really don't prove anything because the climb and speed of the F-4 are way off.
btw, notice that Mike never did a comparison of the Vb to the F-4. I think because the F kicks the Vb's butt! > (sorry Mike!)

Truth is far more poignant and compelling than any of our bias - That is why I am here - I want the truth! What else is there?

 

[davparlr]

While I agree completely with almost all of what you have said Davparlr, I must contest your claim that the P-51D ruled the skies over 25k before the advent of the Ta-152, for it certainly did not. The Bf-109K had a considerable performance advantage at both low and high alt over the P-51D.

Bf-109K performance at alt:

25k ft = 720 km/h (447 mph) / Rads open: 13.5 m/s (2,657 ft/min) - Rads closed: 15.5 m/s (3,051 ft/min)

30k ft = 702 km/h (438 mph) / Rads open: 9.7 m/s (1,909 ft/min) - Rads closed: 11.7 m/s (2,303 ft/min)

33k ft = 690 km/h (431 mph) / Rads open: 7.5 m/s (1,476 ft/min) - Rads closed: 9.5 m/s (1,870 ft/min)

35k ft = 679 km/h (424 mph) / Rads open: 6 m/s (1,181 ft/min) - Rads closed: 8 m/s (1,574 ft/min)

Service Ceiling: 12.7 km (41,6k ft)

Can't argue with you here. I don't have a lot of data. I could only find data for the K-6, which shows a speed of 441 mph at 25k, about the same as the P-51D. Ceiling was 38,700 ft, lower than the Mustang. Climb to 20k was 9 minutes, quite a bit slower than the Mustangs 6.7. I have nothing else. If you have data on the Ks, I would like to see it. I am building a quick reference spreadsheet of the main fighter players of the war.

 

[davparlr]

davparlr,

That makes sense of the situation. The Stang had control. Even if it had to go below 25k it would carry a lot of E with it (but I would not want to be a 51 level @15k if there was a Dora @ 20k.

Alt is everything - or so says many a dead spitfire pilot.

If you were in a P-51D at 15k and you met a Fw-190D-9 at 15k, you would want to start figuring out a way to get higher. At 15k the Fw has a 16 mph airspeed advantage and a 1200 ft/min rate of climb advantage, which also means it could easily turn inside of you. You could probably dive away, but things don't get better at lower altitude.

 

[Soren]

Chingachgook,

It wasn't my intention to put you down at all, so I apologize if thats what I achieved. My intention was to tell you not to rely on Mike Williams for German fighter performance data, as he's got the habbit of showing the worst possible figures he can find while trying to acquire the best possible for Allied a/c. That having been said, Mike's site is a good resource for data on Allied a/c.

Davparlr,

Eventhough the 109K-4 is superior to the P-51 over nearly the whole height band, its still interesting to note that they've got almost exactly the same ceiling, having only 66 ft between them.

Fact is the reason for the 109K-4's superior performance was its light weight and small size, cause engine wise the Merlin certainly did better at the extreme altitudes.

PS: If you're interested in 109 performance I can PM you the charts you need.