Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

In the best fighter polls, the FW beat the Spitfire and the Mustang as top fighter plane.

In the best Fighter poll of all time the Spitfire beat the FW and the P-51.

Here it seems like some people think the Mustang is on par with the FW which means the spit is as well. Whats really the case?

 

[lesofprimus]

In the hands of equally capable pilots, the Dora was the better machine....

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

I guess the British lost one poll and won the other poll to make the Spit the best fighter aircraft.

And the FW fans didn't work as hard on the all time fighter poll as on the WWII best fighter poll to make the FW supreme.

Which goes to show polls can be out of balance I guess.

And of course all the P-51 got going for it agains't the FW is speed and maybe firepower and even those are only on par. The Mustang has the 6 hour Drop tanks. Buts that not much in dealing with FW fighters. Except it could attack from a farther distance than a FW good because of range. Whats given it the universal title of "best fighter plane of WWII" anyway?

One thing though. One this Warbird Forum poll of "Best fighter plane of WWII" the Corsair should have been next to the Spit or above it. Maybe it wasn't as good as the FW, but the Corsair was certainly as close to a Spitfire in beating it. And on the poll it's way near the bottom.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Was the P-51 better at higher altitudes than the FW say on the B-17 high altitude bomb runs when they fought each other?

Or did the FW beat it on that too?

And was the Spitfire XIV better at high altitude dogfights than the FW?

 

[Erich]

yes and it also beat out the Dora, the Ta 152C and H which the Stang never met would of reigned over the p-51. what made the Stang so special ......... the endurance of long range which no other Allied escort fighter had. this from interviews of many many 8th AF fighter jocks

 

[Soren]

The P-51 had good high altitude performance, the Dora didn't, simple as that.

At the altitudes where the bombers were flying the Dora-9's power had dropped significantly, and while the Dora-9's were climbing to engage the bombers the P-51's had a relatively easy time picking them off.

On the Eastern front however, where the fights were mostly down low, the Fw-190 Dora-9 enjoyed tremendous succes by virtue of its excellent low altitude performance, out-performing any adversary it met. And it was lucky for the Mustang pilots that they rarely had to tangle with the Dora-9 down low, where it was distinctly superior to the P-51 in every aspect of flight.

There really wasn't a fighter down low the Dora-9 couldn't beat.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Combat Aircraft of World War Two

Spitfire Mk. XIV versus FW190A

Early in1944 the Air Fighting Development Unit flew a Mk XIV Spitfire in a comparative trial against a captured Focke-Wulf 190A. The following are extracts from the official report.

SPITFIRE XIV VERSUS FW 190A
Maximum Speed: From 0-5,000 feet [0-1525 metres] and between 15,000-20,000 feet
[4573-6100 metres] the Spitfire XIV is only 20 mph [32 km/hr] faster than the FW190;
at all other heights it is up to 60 mph [97 km/hr] faster.

Maximum Climb: The Spitfire XIV has a considerably greater rate of climb at all altitudes.

Dive: After the initial part of the dive, during which the FW 190 gains slightly, the Spitfire XIV has a slight advantage.

Turning Circle: The Spitfire XIV can easily turn inside the FW 190. In the case of a right-hand turn, this difference is not so pronounced.

Rate of Roll: The FW 190 is very much better.

Conclusions: In defence, the Spitfire XIV should us its remarkable maximum climb and turning circle against enemy aircraft. In the attack it can affort to 'mix it' but should beware of the quick roll and dive.
If this maneuver is used by a FW190 and the Spitfire XIV follows, it will probably not be able to close
the range until the FW190 has pulled out of its dive.

From http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire14v190.htm

 

[Soren]

You do realise that you're comparing a Fw-190A3 with a Spitfire Mk.XIV right ? And that the Fw-190's engine isn't running properly, as-well as the fact that the ailerons aint adjusted properly either...

 

[KraziKanuK]

This is by one who calls himself Crumpp, who is part of the White 1 Foundation. He is a wealth of knowledge on the Fw190.

Posted on the CWoS board:

"That would be the ailerons when properly adjusted. Even the Luftwaffe had a difficult time in keeping the ailerons adjusted. Of all the great engineering found on the aircraft, the aileron adjusting blocks are certainly not one of them!"

So it would seem, the RAF's test a/c was not so far removed from a typical LW 190.

 

[Soren]

It is well known that up until the A-6 the Fw-190 had problems with its ailerons, and even the LW mechanics (The only ones who could properly correct this) sometimes found it hard to get right. This problem was solved with the introduction of the A-6 however.

 

[lesofprimus]

Yup...

 

[KraziKanuK]

It is well known that up until the A-6 the Fw-190 had problems with its ailerons, and even the LW mechanics (The only ones who could properly correct this) sometimes found it hard to get right. This problem was solved with the introduction of the A-6 however.

Nope it was still there, just not as bad as before.

Anyone could make the correct adjustments if they had the manual that told them how to do it.


Crumpp:
The FW-190A6 and above mounted the Type III. The aileron types were interchangeable but the standard for the FW-190A6 and above was the Type III.

The hinge geometry and a stiffening of the internal structure.

 

[Soren]

Nope it was still there, just not as bad as before.

To my knowledge the problem was eliminated with the introduction of the A-6, where have you heard otherwise ?

Anyone could make the correct adjustments if they had the manual that told them how to do it.

- and the right tools plus experience.

 

[KraziKanuK]

To my knowledge the problem was eliminated with the introduction of the A-6, where have you heard otherwise ?

- and the right tools plus experience.

Then if it was eliminated, why were there Allied pilots saying they saw late model 190As snap/spin? Hardly indicative of the problem being completely solved.

- tools and experience is a given.

Join the White 1 Foundation.

 

[alejandro_]

There really wasn't a fighter down low the Dora-9 couldn't beat.

The La-7 was quite an opponent at low altitudes.

Regards.

 

[Soren]

Then if it was eliminated, why were there Allied pilots saying they saw late model 190As snap/spin? Hardly indicative of the problem being completely solved.

Come on ! Is that your proof ?

I guess this is the quote your clinging to:
"Thomas L. Hayes, Jr. recalled diving after a fleeing Me-109G until both aircraft neared the sound barrier and their controls locked. Both pilots took measures to slow down, but to Hayes' astonishment, the Me-109 was the first to pull out of its dive. As he belatedly regained control of his Mustang, Hayes was grateful that the German pilot chose to quit while he was ahead and fly home instead of taking advantage of Hayes' momentary helplessness. Hayes also stated that while he saw several Fw-190s stall and even crash during dogfights, he never saw an Me-109 go out of control"

Well first off all most late war 190A's were flying with bomber-interceptor setups, heavily armed and loaded(The ones P-51 pilot's were most likely to meet), so for one of those dogfighting with the lighter allied fighters would most likely end in a stall at some point. Secondly even when the ailerons were properly adjusted stall warning was still not very pronounced, so a green pilot could quite easily miss it and pull abit too hard abruptly stalling the aircraft. (Remember the Fw190 had very sensitive controls)

So that Hayes saw several 190's stall doesn't indicate at all that it was because of a problem with the ailerons, infact all it indicates is that the 190's in question were most likely heavily armed carrying one of the many Rüstsätze's available and/or piloted by a green pilot. And that he even saw some crash can be attributed to a long number of other things before the ailerons. (That it was an earlier version Anton amongst other things perhaps )

Also if you look up the post-war allied tests with the Fw-190 Dora you'll notice how gentle its stall was, and that no problem regarding the adjustment of the ailerons is mentioned(Unlike in ealier reports regarding the Anton), again disproving that there should be any problem with the ailerons.

I'm not saying that with the introduction of the A-6 it was now piece of cake adjusting them, not at all, but that the problem with them not being properly adjusted was over.

But to be on the safe side you could perhaps ask this guy "Crumpp" about it ??

- tools and experience is a given.

Perhaps, but a technical manual is not, and the only info the Allies had on the Fw190 was pilot testimonies.

 

[lesofprimus]

There were also MANY engagements where the German pilots, in both the -190 and the -109, would purposely put their planes into stalls and spins to disengage from an overwhelming situation, to great effect I might add....

 

[KraziKanuK]

first off all most late war 190A's were flying with bomber-interceptor setups, heavily armed and loaded

Where does your info come from that almost all late war 190As were heavily armoured? Proportion wise to the number of 190s produced, the number of FW 190 A-8/R2, FW 190 A-8/R7 and FW 190 A-8/R8 was very small.

The only unit that flew /R8s was IV.(Sturm)/J.G. 3. The FW 190 A-8/R2 had no special armour but had the outboard cannon replaced with MK 108 30 mm cannons. The /R7 got the cockpit fuselage armour.

 

[Soren]

Krazi, I said "Armed" not "Armoured".

 

[lesofprimus]

This is true, he did say armed....