Fw 190: the good, the bad and the ugly

tomo pauk · Jun 21, 2015

Mike Williams said:
The following passage from Flugbericht Fw190 410230 V 34 Nr.1 should be kept in mind when discussing Fw 190 flight test figures from Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau:

Ergebnis zu 1) Erstmalig ist im Kurvenblatt 1) die über der Meßstrecke ermittelte Staudruck eichung unter Berücksichtigung der Kompressibilität der Luft aufgetragen. In Zukunft werden alle mit den BMW 801 F und Jumo 312 Triebwerken ermittelten Geschwindigkeitsleistungen mit Berücksichtigung der Kompressibilität bekanntgegeben. Bei den Flugzeugen mit 801 D Motoren entfällt diese Umrechnung auch weiterhin, um die Vergleichsmöglichkeiten mit früher ermittelten Werten zu erleichtern.

That said, the comparison discussed in the report on Fw 190 528 is very interesting and worthy of note.

Thanks for the feedback, Mike.
Looking at the Fw 190A-5 chart that shows some 15 km/h of difference between the speed values that are corrected for compressibility and not corrected (for 7 km and 645 km/h true corrected), that should put the speed of the Fw 190 Wk.Nr.528 somewhere around 675+ km/h? Indeed the Fw 190D was to do 685 km/h, and it would take a good leap of faith to believe the #528 will be beating that - it was lighter, but not more streamlined than the D-9.

The 190A-6 was to gain 15 km/h at 7 km when external intakes ('Ansaughutzen 'Aussen'' vs. 'Ansaughutzen 'innen'') were installed; the price was increased drag that lowered the speed under the rated height:

tomo pauk · Jun 21, 2015

dedalos said:
I always wondered what would be the performance of the A4 airframe in combination with the later BMW 801s of the 2100 ps. It would be an excellent vertion for the Eastern front. But the RLM could think of nothing else than more and more guns and more and more armour

More guns and more armor were requirements of the 'bomber war' the LW was making from 1943 on, in the ETO and MTO. As always - more guns armor means lowering the performance, and that, coupled with steady advances in Allied fighter force meant more bad than good for the LW pilots and Germany itself.
The 190A-4 with the overboosted 801D would also be a pretty mean fighter for the Eastern front.

dedalos said:
Once again, as in the case of the Me 109, RLM was unwilling to insert improvements from fear of losing some production

For the Fw 190 (and other A/C) to remain competitive, an improved engine is needed at least every year, ie. from late 1943 the substantially better engine is needed, after the fully rated 801D (late 1942) and the start with 801C (late 1941 in combat). The 190 got it in late 1944 instead, LW lost the air war in the mean time.
Producing masses of aircraft was a far easier thing than producing masses of trained pilots.

gjs238 · Jun 21, 2015

tomo pauk said:
Producing masses of aircraft was a far easier thing than producing masses of trained pilots.

Therein lies the rub.

SpicyJuan11 · Jun 22, 2015

Would someone please tell me what happened to the Fw 190 B? Why was it cancelled?

kool kitty89 · Jun 22, 2015

tomo pauk said:
For the Fw 190 (and other A/C) to remain competitive, an improved engine is needed at least every year, ie. from late 1943 the substantially better engine is needed, after the fully rated 801D (late 1942) and the start with 801C (late 1941 in combat). The 190 got it in late 1944 instead, LW lost the air war in the mean time.
Producing masses of aircraft was a far easier thing than producing masses of trained pilots.

This is where the big argument for 'quality over quantity' comes into play to. And while it's certainly true that having a well-organized, efficient training program infrastructure would have made a huge difference as well, the issue of putting an emphasis on war machines able to make the best use of existing high quality pilots/crew is significant. That and putting a greater emphasis on operational effectiveness would be more important than initial manufacturing costs. (ability to fulfill their given mission, survivability, handling on the ground and in the air, reliability, and resources required for maintaining continual operations -man hours spent on maintenance, skilled personnel required to maintain the machines, as well as material resources of oil, fuel, spare parts, tool wear, etc)

Aside from up-arming and up-engining the Fw 190 itself, there's the possibility of retaining a number of lighter fighters configured for fighter-interceptor duties (a role the 109 sometimes played, but specialized 190 variants may have done significantly better). You have a good lot of potential for different Fw 190 derivatives with the progression of BMW, DB, and Jumo engines available.

The Fw 187 still comes to mind as well, including potential to be something akin to an early-war Me 262 counterpart with enough performance to evade any escorting fighters and enough firepower to devastate heavy bomber formations. (at least if fitted with Jumo 211 or DB 601/605 engines and up-armmed to perhaps 4 or even 6 MG-FF/M cannons, 4 MG 151/20s and eventually 4 MK 108s -granted, you'd need cheek bulges and/or belly/lower nose mounted gun placements to fit that at very least for the 108s) Hypothetical of course given the lack of further development of that design, but it seems like it might have had the potential to fit that role and even transition to night fighter with the more compact radar available late war. (allocating the larger/heavier DB-603, BMW 801, and Jumo 213 seems unwise given the potential difficulty in adapting the airframe to that degree of weight increase plus the greater value in applying those to bombers, larger night fighters, and Fw 190 airframes)

wuzak · Jun 22, 2015

Only problem is that the "heavy bomber formations" don't really show up until mid 1943. From mid 1942 to mid 1943 the daylight bombing campaign was by relatively small formations.

Before the escort fighters there was no need for the Fw 187 as a bomber destroyer. Bf 110 and Ju 88 night fighters could do the job of heavy bomber destroyers.

When the escorts showed up, the twins were outclassed and could not survive long. I'm not sure the Fw 187 would have been that much different.

SpicyJuan11 · Jun 22, 2015

wuzak said:
When the escorts showed up, the twins were outclassed and could not survive long. I'm not sure the Fw 187 would have been that much different.

I wouldn't be too sure about that, with DB 600's*, the 187 approached 400 mph (something the 110 never came even close to getting. As for the other important characteristics, this is what Rechlin test pilot Heinrich Beauvais opinions concerning the Fw-187 was:
- Circled comparable to the Me-109.
- Roll rate slightly less than the Me-109.
- Top speed superior to the Me-109. ~30 mph faster.
- Climb superior to the Me-109. ~300 feet per minute better.
- Dive as good as the Me-109.

*One of my sources says that it was fully armed when it attained that speed, I'm not sure if Beauvais's was.

tomo pauk · Jun 22, 2015

The Daimlerized Fw 187 vs. the Fw 190 - it depends what we want from the aircraft, and what engines are available. If we want the aircraft with 4 cannons (or more?) and plenty of fuel, the Fw 190A becomes a non-performer - the Fw190A-8. The Fw 187 with ~3000 HP (talk DB 605A, late 1943 on) can lug around a heavy battery of cannons and plenty of fuel, and still perform. From mid 1943 on, the Fw 190 needs the engine better than the BMW 801D, lets say the Jumo 213 or DB 603 in order to match it, and here the LW dropped the ball in crucial time of war.

SpicyJuan11 said:
Would someone please tell me what happened to the Fw 190 B? Why was it cancelled?

Dietmar Hermann, in his booklet about the high altitude Focke Wulf fighters, says that there are no clearly stated reasons about why the 190B was cancelled. He also writes that Kurt Tank didn't liked very much that the weight of the 190B was increased by 150 kg because the GM-1 system was to be installed. One of the features to be incorporated in the 190B was the bigger wing, 20.3 sq m vs. usual 18.3.
The 190B-1 was stated in RLM production planing, production was to start from June 1942, with 2991 fighter planed to be produced until Dec 1943.

SpicyJuan11 · Jun 22, 2015

tomo pauk said:
The Daimlerized Fw 187 vs. the Fw 190 - it depends what we want from the aircraft, and what engines are available. If we want the aircraft with 4 cannons (or more?) and plenty of fuel, the Fw 190A becomes a non-performer - the Fw190A-8. The Fw 187 with ~3000 HP (talk DB 605A, late 1943 on) can lug around a heavy battery of cannons and plenty of fuel, and still perform. From mid 1943 on, the Fw 190 needs the engine better than the BMW 801D, lets say the Jumo 213 or DB 603 in order to match it, and here the LW dropped the ball in crucial time of war.

Dietmar Hermann, in his booklet about the high altitude Focke Wulf fighters, says that there are no clearly stated reasons about why the 190B was cancelled. He also writes that Kurt Tank didn't liked very much that the weight of the 190B was increased by 150 kg because the GM-1 system was to be installed. One of the features to be incorporated in the 190B was the bigger wing, 20.3 sq m vs. usual 18.3.
The 190B-1 was stated in RLM production planing, production was to start from June 1942, with 2991 fighter planed to be produced until Dec 1943.

Ok, thank you for the info.

wiking85 · Jun 22, 2015

tomo pauk said:
Dietmar Hermann, in his booklet about the high altitude Focke Wulf fighters, says that there are no clearly stated reasons about why the 190B was cancelled. He also writes that Kurt Tank didn't liked very much that the weight of the 190B was increased by 150 kg because the GM-1 system was to be installed. One of the features to be incorporated in the 190B was the bigger wing, 20.3 sq m vs. usual 18.3.
The 190B-1 was stated in RLM production planing, production was to start from June 1942, with 2991 fighter planed to be produced until Dec 1943.

The 190B was turbo-charged. They couldn't afford the metals to build turbochargers in that quantity, so they cancelled it, just like the they didn't build the Jumo 004A or the turbocharged Fw190C.

Shortround6 · Jun 22, 2015

Dang tablets. You can bacon things you can't see!

tomo pauk · Jun 22, 2015

wiking85 said:
The 190B was turbo-charged. They couldn't afford the metals to build turbochargers in that quantity, so they cancelled it, just like the they didn't build the Jumo 004A or the turbocharged Fw190C.

Going by this thread, the 190B was not turbo charged: link.
The Jumo 388 used turboed engines, the hollow blades were a way to circumvent the requirements for the rare metals.
The reason why the turboed DB 603 was cancelled for the Fw 190 was the installations' huge drag - the Fw 190 with DB 603A was 30-50 km/h faster from SL up to 9 km, the turboed 190 taking over above 10 km. The Fw 190 with DB 603A that featured the experimental 'G' (scroll type) supercharger was faster up to 10 km, and above was equally fast.

SpicyJuan11 · Jun 22, 2015

tomo pauk said:
Going by this thread, the 190B was not turbo charged: link.
The Jumo 388 used turboed engines, the hollow blades were a way to circumvent the requirements for the rare metals.
The reason why the turboed DB 603 was cancelled for the Fw 190 was the installations' huge drag - the Fw 190 with DB 603A was 30-50 km/h faster from SL up to 9 km, the turboed 190 taking over above 10 km. The Fw 190 with DB 603A that featured the experimental 'G' (scroll type) supercharger was faster up to 10 km, and above was equally fast.

Which turbo'd C are you referring to? Didn't the V18 have much less drag?

tomo pauk · Jun 22, 2015

I'm not referring to the turboed 190C - there was no such thing? The 'turboed' Fw 190 was the V18/U1 (Wk.Nr.0040), and it was one draggy aircraft. Same the for similar machines - from V29 to V32.
The V13, V15 and V16 (DB 603A, but no turbo) were far more streamlined practical aircraft, without the inter-cooler's radiator and turbine sticking in the slipstream in 1920s/30s fashion. V15 was later used as trial machine for the installation of turbo-associated plumbing.
The more streamlined turbo installations, that required cutting a bit of the fuselage fuel tankage so the turbo and inter-cooler can be buried in the fuselage, never left the paper stage.

wiking85 · Jun 22, 2015

tomo pauk said:
Going by this thread, the 190B was not turbo charged: link.
The Jumo 388 used turboed engines, the hollow blades were a way to circumvent the requirements for the rare metals.
The reason why the turboed DB 603 was cancelled for the Fw 190 was the installations' huge drag - the Fw 190 with DB 603A was 30-50 km/h faster from SL up to 9 km, the turboed 190 taking over above 10 km. The Fw 190 with DB 603A that featured the experimental 'G' (scroll type) supercharger was faster up to 10 km, and above was equally fast.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190_B_und_C
Seems pretty well sourced about this.

tomo pauk · Jun 23, 2015

Unfortunately, it is not that well sourced about the Fw 190B.
It lists under the literature the booklet by D. Hermann (Die Focke-Wulf Höhenjäger. Vom 1. Höhenjäger zur Fw 190 H) - I have the booklet, and as power plant for the 190B is listed solely the BMW 801D; the experiments with GM-1 system started with Wk.Nr. 0049 and 0811 (those were named Fw 190B-1) in March 1944. For the flight tests of the 1st Fw 190B0 (Wk.Nr 0046), please see the test reports kindly provided by Mike Williams in the thread I've posted the link above. Also this climb graph (sorry for not the best quality, please open it separately):

The Wiki article about the 190B reminds me about the article about Yak-3 in Russian - author of the article lists Shavrov's book under literature, yet Shavrov notes that Yak-3 entered service in 1944, contrary to what the Wiki article says. Similar thing is the article about the BMW 116 engine, where literature listed disagrees with the article itself.

This will also raise the eyebrow, from the Wikipedia article about the Fw 190B C:

Für die B-Baureihe der Fw 190 war ursprünglich der BMW 801 J als Antrieb geplant (der später in wenigen Exemplaren auch in der Fw 190 A-9 verbaut wurde).

Basically, the bolded part will want us to believe that small number of Fw 190A-9 received turbo engines (BMW 801J)???

Also this outrageous sentence:

Da der BMW 801 Motor ursprünglich nicht für den Einsatz in einem Jagdflugzeug entwickelt worden war, verfügte er auch nicht über einen Lader, dessen Leistungsfähigkeit in größeren Höhen mit jenem z.B. des DB 605 V-Motor [1] vergleichbar war, der der Messerschmitt Bf 109 gegenüber der Fw 190 A eine deutlich bessere Höhenleistung verlieh.

Myths galore - no supercharger (or not good supercharger - help) on BMW 801 vs. DB 605, engine is to blame for Fw 190 not being as good as Bf 109 at altitude (more guns, ammo, protection and fuel seem not to play any part, ditto for the layout of intakes), what Fw 190 vs. what Bf 109 etc.

SpicyJuan11 · Jun 23, 2015

tomo pauk said:
I'm not referring to the turboed 190C - there was no such thing? The 'turboed' Fw 190 was the V18/U1 (Wk.Nr.0040), and it was one draggy aircraft. Same the for similar machines - from V29 to V32.
The V13, V15 and V16 (DB 603A, but no turbo) were far more streamlined practical aircraft, without the inter-cooler's radiator and turbine sticking in the slipstream in 1920s/30s fashion. V15 was later used as trial machine for the installation of turbo-associated plumbing.
The more streamlined turbo installations, that required cutting a bit of the fuselage fuel tankage so the turbo and inter-cooler can be buried in the fuselage, never left the paper stage.

Was the turbo worth the drag? Could it have been made more aerodynamic? How much speed did it sacrifice?

tomo pauk · Jun 23, 2015

SpicyJuan11 said:
Was the turbo worth the drag?

As flown - a clear 'no, it was not'.

Could it have been made more aerodynamic?

It could, at least if we look at the drawings of proposed semi-buried installations, that never past the 'paper stage'.

How much speed did it sacrifice?

Inter-cooler, turbo and tubing cost 30-50 km/h from SL to 8 km, less between 8 and 9 km of altitude where the turboed DB 603 have had a hefty power surplus vs. the 'normal' DB 603 to overcome the drag.

kool kitty89 · Jun 23, 2015

The bigger point would be that the DB 603A alone made for a good all around performing fighter when mated to the 190 airframe while also being available nearly a year before the Jumo 213 was. (the DB-605AS would also be interesting for lighter high-alt fighter configurations -same for higher alt oriented Jumo 211 models like the 211R or hypothetical alternate supercharger configurations, had the demand for that engine on high-alt fighters materialized)

Junkers Engines - Jumo 211

If that chart is accurate, the 211R seems more related to the 211F/J rather than the 2700 RPM N/P. Seems like it may have been a 211J with higher supercharger gear ratios and ending up with similar take-off power to the 211F due to the added intercooling.

SpicyJuan11 · Jun 24, 2015

tomo pauk said:
As flown - a clear 'no, it was not'. It could, at least if we look at the drawings of proposed semi-buried installations, that never past the 'paper stage'. Inter-cooler, turbo and tubing cost 30-50 km/h from SL to 8 km, less between 8 and 9 km of altitude where the turboed DB 603 have had a hefty power surplus vs. the 'normal' DB 603 to overcome the drag.

Wow, why didn't they try to go for the semi-buried design first?

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