Fw better then Me-262?

[Udet]

100% agree with Signor Parmigiano.

I´d just add the fact that of the approximate total number of claims of USAAF pilots a number of those did not end in the shooting down of a Me 262.

~700 enemy planes claimed destroyed in combat by the jets...of which, as Erich states, some 300 can not yet be confirmed, and might not be confirmed, ever.

Still, and as Parmi correctly suggested, the number of kills that are proved is a testament of the proficieny of the Me 262 and the pilots who manned it in combat action.

~400 enemy planes destroyed in action means a significant number of German pilots achieved kills flying the Me 262, shattering to a very important extent the allied notion of the ill-trained German pilots of the last months of the war. Bugs and novelty of the model as experienced and advised by the German pilots included.

 

[Civettone]

Like I said, with the new Jumo engines the Me 262 would have achieved its full potential in the middle of 1945.



Kris

 

[FLYBOYJ]

~400 enemy planes destroyed in action means a significant number of German pilots achieved kills flying the Me 262, shattering to a very important extent the allied notion of the ill-trained German pilots of the last months of the war. Bugs and novelty of the model as experienced and advised by the German pilots included.

Agree - and that to itself is a major achievement.

Like I said, with the new Jumo engines the Me 262 would have achieved its full potential in the middle of 1945.



Kris

I'm sorry Kris "would of, could of, should of," all speculation. By the summer of 1945 there would of been another several thousand allied aircraft to contend with. It would of een really hard to say what would of happened....

 

[Erich]

I need to do more research but after 35 years of it just on the 262 and ops both day and night I am still am wondering if 250 kills were achieved by the 262. JV 44 records something like 50 which probably 30 can be attested to the unit if that. JG 7 is still an unknown as the kills on the Ost front have not all been documented or ever will. the KG (J) units in the fighter role were almost worthless providing US P-51 a/c plenty of targets. JG 7 was personally the unit to be tried and tampered with during 45 and with the unit came victories and with it came losses. there is without doubt noted panic amongst the US bomber crews when these things were flying in their vicinity. for the Us fighter jocks it was more of awe than fear/panic. The US knew they controlled the skies in 45 and it was of personal delight if the US pilot could catch one of the "blow jobs" however it may be, whether landing, taking off or in the air in combat.

In any case the 262 did present aerial ideas for what was to become the future of air warfare

 

[Civettone]

FlyboyJ
of course you're right about these what-if scenarios. One can never tell what would have happened if this or that had taken place or not...

But I already stated that the Jumo 004D had an effective throttle regulator which sorted the flooding&flaming problem. This engine was taken in production before the end of the war but could not be used operationally before the end of hostilities. Fly tests with the new Jumo 004 engines showed operations of 150 hours, and 600 hours on a stationary testbed. In combat conditions this would be a lot less, sure, but it would have made the Me 262 reliable enough...

And about engine reliability, how reliable was the Jumo 213E? I also recall it had to be revised after just 25 hours...

As to what the allies would send up in the Summer of 1945, there are few surprises. New Spitfire, P-51s, P-47s, Tempests, Yakovlevs, ... but none of these would have closed the gap on the jet fighter. So perhaps the P-80 with a fixed air inlet or the Meteor Mk III?

Kris

 

[delcyros]

That´s at all only partially the case.
The Jumo-004D had only superficial improvements (a larger air intake and a modified fuel injection system for improved hi alt behavior), resulting in a slight increase in poweroutput (930 Kp rated) and a significantly better high altitude reliability. There were no engine based modification of the accelerator valve, which was the main course of the -004B´s bad reliability. The sensibility of throttle changes was still there, at least in low altitudes (were it was even more important: during take off landings!). The reason why the -004D4 and -004B4 (both of which were in mass production at wars end) had a longer lifetime was the new Tinadur alloy used for the turbine section, altough I seriously doubt any figures above 100 hours.

The soviets, however made substantial changes to the -004D and the afterburner modified -004E. I know about one 004 which was testbenched to over 3000 lbs!

 

[VALENGO]

I have read that after a test flight in TA152, a Luftwaffe´s pilot said "I have not flew the Me 262, but I have no doubt that the FW is better". Well, a test pilot of TA152 is somebody to listen.

 

[Yakpilot]

Bash the 262 all you want…. but it was most effective as a demoralizing weapon against allied bombers. It showed a technical type of superiority. It was 100 MPH faster than anything else in the air…… It also paved the way for the real jets….Migs and the American types.

The 262 was just plain cool.8)

 

[Civettone]

Hi Delcyros

IIRC the throttle regulator was not a part of the Jumo 004 itself, it was something like a governor in the cockpit, which 'regulated' the actual throttle movement in the engine regardless of the speed of movement done by the pilot. But I don't have any further details on it, so perhaps it was still under development and hopefully in time to be installed together with the new Jumo 004D engines.
But I argue that the real problem of the Jumo 004 was not so much the flame outs. A decent pilot should know what to do or not to do with an aircraft. When you take off in a Bf 109 you keep the the tail wheel locked. If you fly in a Me 262 you move the throttle gently. It can't be that hard...

The real problem was the reliability of the engine which is a completely seperate issue from the flame outs caused by bad handling... I don't know about Tinadur but I know of Cromadur, perhaps similar?. And I also know that the Russians copied the Jumo 004 as the RD-10 but used better materials. This way they used those engines for years on their jet fighters. IIRC they had 50 hours service intervals but probably longer. I'll stick by the claim that the Germans tested their new Jumo 004s up to 150 hours actual flying time. Check out the article I mentioned...
I also want to make clear that one shouldn't make this engine revisions into something they weren't. The 4 back turbine blades (or combustion chamber cans?) had to be replaced. Big deal!

Honestly, I think the Jumo 213 of the beloved Fw 190D didn't have better serviceability than the Jumo 004. The figures I've seen do not show a worse operationality with Me 262 equiped units than with some other piston engined fighter units.

Again, I'm not trying to make the Me 262 into a superweapon - I already said I don't believe in that - but it has become apparent to me that some are losing a bit of perspective regarding the Me 262, treating it as if its engines would explode most of the time it went into combat. Please, let's keep it real, guys!
Kris

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I just want to clear something up here guys. This thread was never about whether the Fw-190 was technically better than the 262. Everyone knows that jet is technically better. True the engines sucked but it was still a great plane when it was working just fine. If they could have put better engines and used similiar metals to build the aircraft it would have been a great jet fighter.

The purpose of this thread was to prove to Wespe that the Me-262 was not the most versatile aircraft of WW2. He swore up and down that the Me-262 was the most versatile and definatly more versatile than the Fw-190, Ju-88 and Mossie. So the Fw-190 was used in comparison because it was a single engine aircraft.

Just thought I would throw that back out there because I think some people think this discussion was about something else.

Okay carry on...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

True the engines sucked but it was still a great plane when it was working just fine. If they could have put better engines and used similiar metals to build the aircraft it would have been a great jet fighter.

Bingo - That's the point I was trying to drive home as well - It's one thing to have this super performing state of the art fighter aircraft, it's another thing knowing that while you fly this bird the engines could come apart at any time.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap I think the fact that the engines could flame out at any time would have been in the back of the pilots mind and maybe effected his readiness and ability.

 

[Civettone]

Yeap I think the fact that the engines could flame out at any time would have been in the back of the pilots mind and maybe effected his readiness and ability.

Now that's an exaggeration! When properly handled and if the engines hadn't reached their revision point, the fighter worked just fine! Like I said in my last post, let's not go treating it as if its engines would explode most of the time it went into combat.

In any case, can we agree that - if the engines held - it was the best fighter in the world? Or not?

Kris

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Now that's an exaggeration! When properly handled and if the engines hadn't reached their revision point, the fighter worked just fine! Like I said in my last post, let's not go treating it as if its engines would explode most of the time it went into combat.

At best they were still 25 hour engines, to me that's a major limitation in any operational situation. An engine failure at takeoff meant you were flying a brick and chances are you were not climbing or going around....

In any case, can we agree that - if the engines held - it was the best fighter in the world? Or not?

Kris

In it's day - yes....

 

[Erich]

no the 262 was not the best fighter in the world. Again I point out the limitations of turns, proven repeatedly in fighter vs fighter combat with P-51's.

Flame outs occurred about as frequent as 3cm gun jams in the bird. not that often. JG 7 boys were not concerned: ~ the tactic ~ swoop like a porpoise onto the rear of the bomber pulk, blast them, zoom through and out and beat it home and do not wait up for the US escorts if they were about

 

[Hunter368]

I have to agree "somewhat" with you Erich. This is what I mean:

Would you sooner be flying a P-51 and being attacked by a ME-262.

or

Would you sooner be flying a ME-262 and being attacked by a P-51.


I 110% agree that the 262 was NOT the best fighter all a round. In a 1 vs 1 battle (I understand that happened rarely but we are talking only "ifs" and "buts" here now anyways) I would sooner fly the 262 than a P-51.

Like a said I 100% agree that the 262 had many problems, but damn it would be shitting my pants if I was sitting in a P-51 and seen a 262 swooping in or down on me. If I was the 262 and saw a P-51 closing in on me I would just open her up and speed away, I would not bother trying to dogfight it. Too dangerous I might be bounced by other P-51's or flame out etc etc.

I hope I am explaining what I mean clearly b/c I do understand the problems of the 262. But sitting behind those 30mm cannons and flying over 500 MPH is something very comforting about that.

Sitting in that P-51 knowing even 1 of those shells would rip my plane in two or knowing that the 262 has such a huge speed advantage over me would make me very very nervous indeed. But in real life knowing that I have about 100 other P-51's backing me up vs that 1 262 would make me feel much much better also. LOL But that is real life.

 

[Erich]

it is all situational. either yes or either no. each one could deal out the lethality
. if the 262 could open it up and speed off in a straight line then P-51 eat my dust and the P-51 vets have said that to me, but too many times the 262's would try to turn in an arc for some reason and that was their doom. In the very honest sense the P-51 pilots due to their cockiness and they still are, felt quite comfortable taking anything the Luftwaffe had - on. Personal feelings may have changed had the Luftwaffe had the sheer numbers of 262's in the air equivalent to the numbers of P-51. 8)

 

[Hunter368]

it is all situational. either yes or either no. each one could deal out the lethality
. if the 262 could open it up and speed off in a straight line then P-51 eat my dust and the P-51 vets have said that to me, but too many times the 262's would try to turn in an arc for some reason and that was their doom. In the very honest sense the P-51 pilots due to their cockiness and they still are, felt quite comfortable taking anything the Luftwaffe had - on. Personal feelings may have changed had the Luftwaffe had the sheer numbers of 262's in the air equivalent to the numbers of P-51. 8)

I need what helped to give USA pilots confindence is the poor quality of the average German pilot they ran into in late 44 and 45. Plus add to the fact that the USA pilots outnumbered the Germans by many fold at most times. So again if 15 P-51's ran into 1 or 2 ME 262's each individual pilot had little to fear even if the Germans were able to shoot down 1 or 2 P-51's there was small chance it was them. Then the P-51's would dog and swarm all over the 262's.

Everyone has to keep in mind also is that air combat is not a chess match. You don't get 5 mins to decide what is the best move to make before you make it. Air combats lasts most times only moments before it is over. So what happens is you get good pilots even who get surprised and make a dumb move and they get shot down. In hind sight if that good pilot was on the ground he would preach to newbies to never make a move like this....and yet if that vet gets surprised and has to make a split second decision he at times made that very same move that he preached to the newbies to never make. That at times was how a vet pilot would get shot down flying a 262 (or any other plane), so when you see a 262 trying to turn in a arc vs a P-51 it could of been a newbie making a mistake or a vet who was surprised and in that split second make a newbie mistake.

Air combat is split second decisions, adrenaline pumping, hair rising thing......it is not chess. Mistakes are made even by the best pilots....if they are lucky it will not cost them their lives. There is rarely second chances given in air combat and no mulligans allowed. Thats why so many damn good pilots and men died in air combat.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Now that's an exaggeration! When properly handled and if the engines hadn't reached their revision point, the fighter worked just fine! Like I said in my last post, let's not go treating it as if its engines would explode most of the time it went into combat.

10 to 25 hours is not a long time....

If the engines in my Hawk were only rated that long I would not have flown everyday in her. Now obviously WW2 was a different time than now though.

In any case, can we agree that - if the engines held - it was the best fighter in the world? Or not?

Kris

No I will not agree on that. The Me-262 was a great aircraft but performance does not make you the best aircraft.

A combination of performance, firepower, reliability and flight characteristics is what makes an aircraft the best or not. For 1945 I would still say that there were piston engine aircraft that had the best of those characteristics combined. Maybe not the best performance or firepower but definatly the best of all combined. Remember there is more to performance than speed as well and speed does not make the best aircraft.

Now I will go as far as saying it was the best intercepter because of its speed and firepower, but not pure fighter per say.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Now I will go as far as saying it was the best intercepter because of its speed and firepower, but not pure fighter per say.

I'll backpedal and agree with that!