Fw190A question

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Milosh, Nov 21, 2009.

  1. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    One often reads that the outer weapons of the 190 were often removed.

    Is this fact or fiction? If it is fact, how often was this done?

    Thanks
     
  2. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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    Fw 190S-5 and A-8/U-1 two seat trainers converted in the field from standard A-5/8 airframes usually had the outer wing armament removed, and the ports faired over.
    As for standard fighters, it's possible - Rammjaeger pilot's sometimes removed the upper guns to save weight.
     
  3. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    Thanks A4K. The jabo 190s, iirc, didn't have outer wing guns.

    Was the fighter versions I was asking about.
     
  4. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Unfortunately it wasn't the rule that MGs or cannons were removed all time.But it is true that in many cases these fuslege MGs or outer wing cannons were off to save some weight.It can be seen in many pictures of Fw190A that were used as heavy fighters ( especially these with the additional armour plates. for example A-6 of Sturmstaffel 1).Also some Fw190 of A-4 variat had their armament without the MG FFs.The A-4/U-1 equipped with the older BMW 801 C-2 engine and used as fighter-bombers had the limited armament as well.The A-4/U3 was similar to the A-4/U1 variant so it means it was without the MG FFs.A-4/U8 was armed with 2xMG151/20E only.
    Concerning the F and G varinats.... G-1 based on A-4/U8.Because of the need to reduce the weight of the variant, its armament was limited to two inner wing MG151/20E.In fact the G-1 name ws existed on paper as these name on plates of about 50 a/c was still A-4/U8 .G-2 also armed with 2xMG151/20E only and ETC 501.G-8 armament without MG131 in fuselage.
    The F-variant ...F-1 based on A-4/U3, F-2 based on A-5/U3 armed with two MG17 and two MG 151/20E, F-8 based on A-8 variant armed with 2xMG131 and two inner MG151/20E,
     
  5. tango35

    tango35 Member

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    Hello Milosh,
    for fighters i think it was not standard to remove the outerwing weapons, but to increase speed ( and we are talking about 30-50 Km/h) it was an opportunity.
    Here are 2 examples done by the Aces Bär on Fw 190 A-7 and Pips Priller on Fw 190 A-6.

    For the aircraft of Bär check the lower and for Prillers aircraft check the upper image.



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    greets from the Home of the Butcherbirds

    Thomas
     
  6. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    #6 Milosh, Nov 22, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
    Thank you for the photo examples Thomas.

    Question though. These were aces, did other less distinguished pilots also do so?

    ps Could these be /R6 a/c?
     
  7. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

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    Hello Milosh
    I have heard cases where lower ranking pilots wanted to remove their outer cannon but were ordered not to do it. Probably for lower ranking pilots it depended on attitudes of their COs

    Juha
     
  8. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    outer 2cm weapons were removed to lighten the Fw and make it more maneuverable in combating US P-51's during late 44 through 45. was standard on the lighter staffel Fw 190A-9's and some A-8's serving in JG 301
     
  9. paradoxguy

    paradoxguy Member

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  10. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the link paradoxguy. My search of the board was a loss, possibly wrong parameters.

    Erich's comments were nice to know.
     
  11. Soren

    Soren Banned

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    Have you talked to some of these men regarding how well these lightened Fw190's stacked up against the P-51? I don't assume it helped a lot at the altitudes the bombers were flying, i.e. the place where most of the fighting took place, the BMW engine not sporting too stellar a performance up there.

    It was generally understood that the Fw190 was slightly more maneuverable in the horizontal and could climb slightly faster on the deck than the Mustang, while it was the reverse at all altitudes above 20kft. Plus the Mustang was faster at all alts.
     
  12. thor

    thor Member

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    the a8 was supercharged was it not?

    it had the pluming ...

    also i had 37.5 k feet as the service ceiling ...

    what determines service ceiling btw, i assume it is a point where the climb rate gets down to a certain point ...
     
  13. Marshall_Stack

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    I know that the FW190 was known for its great roll rate. Would removing the outer guns help the roll rate?
     
  14. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    this might vary from air force to air force (and perhaps from time to time? ie. 1935 vrs 1955) but I think remember seeing 100ft/sec climb.

    Combat ceiling might be another thing. :lol:

    Remember that absoulte ceiling is the hight at which not only the plane cannot climb any higher but it has one speed, full throttle. if there was any power left it would be able to climb. and if it flew any slower it would loose altitude or stall. And if it tried to turn the increased drag would slow the plane down and cause it to loose altitude.
    Dropping down to an altitude were there is only enough power to climb at 100fpm still doesn't leave much room for manuever or sloppy flying technique.
     
  15. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    very busy day gents ........... the whole week liek the same, few times to log on.

    ok back to the outter wing elimination of the 2cm, the thoght was correect to lighten up the FW but as the pilots said it did not do much except to increase the speed ratio flat out. young crews with too little experience trying the high altitude protection, JG 301 should of had 109G-10's, G-14/AS for the I. gruppe to take on the P-51's not Fw 190A-9's. the Doras in the 3 gruppen of JG 301 just came in way too late to amount worth a hill of beans to be effective, again the pilots experience and the lack of it really showed, more like cannon fodder, the first battles in November and December 44 the gruppen would home in on the Staffel leaders and would not engage individually as they did not know how so reamined dog meat, they were not even able to connect by getting on the tails of the Mustang units in nearly 85 % of the time on operations, the Mustang units brought the engagement to them
     
  16. paradoxguy

    paradoxguy Member

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    Thor-

    The following thread is from the Twelve O'Clock High! site and, although it may not provide all the answers you seek, it might provide some useful information for you:

    Focke-Wulf Fw 190A poor high-altitude performance - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

    PG
     
  17. Mosshorn

    Mosshorn Banned

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    Here's another very good reason for deleting the 20mm cannon and ammo from a Fw-190's
    outboard wing stations:

    US fighters VS geramns planes, ww2

    As the gun camera film makes dramatically obvious: the 20mm ammo can/drum was not armored from behind and when .50 cal. hit it (and the explosives in the 20mm rounds detonated) the Fw-190's wing sheared off every time.

    Moss
     
  18. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    Thanks all for your replies.

    Mosshorn, there are some that say the wing loss in the first gun camera footage is due to a fuel vapour explosion.
     
  19. riacrato

    riacrato Member

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    I don't think that was the reason some pilots deleted them. How many aircraft had armor around their wing armament anyways.
     
  20. Mosshorn

    Mosshorn Banned

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    I'm unaware of that speculation. The Fw-190A series did not carry fuel internally in the wings.

    Moss
     
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