imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
Terry could this aircraft be "5966" and not "5819", as Wayne mentioned these two Galland's crates are often confused? It can't be the same aircraft as the one which pictures I've posted.
Galland's Bf 109E-4 1/32 scale
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Igor, if you look at the second profile you posted, showing 5819 in December, with the capped spinner, you'll notice the mottle below the windscreen is the same.
It's difficult to be absolutely certain, but the Werke Nummer in the film footage looks more like 5819 than 5966. Unfortunately, on 'freeze frame', it's too blurred to determine, and can only be seen for about 1.5 seconds, in motion.
As far as I remember, without digging into a huge pile of notes and magazines, the spinner cap was added when the engine was upgraded, I believe around late October, or early November, which possibly explains the differences in colours. I believe the dark-coloured spinner might actually be 5966, even though many photo captions state the opposite.
The box art and decals for the Hasegawa 1/32nd scale kit show this scheme on 5819, with the capped spinner, although the painting instructions state that it is September 1940 !
It's difficult to be absolutely certain, but the Werke Nummer in the film footage looks more like 5819 than 5966. Unfortunately, on 'freeze frame', it's too blurred to determine, and can only be seen for about 1.5 seconds, in motion.
As far as I remember, without digging into a huge pile of notes and magazines, the spinner cap was added when the engine was upgraded, I believe around late October, or early November, which possibly explains the differences in colours. I believe the dark-coloured spinner might actually be 5966, even though many photo captions state the opposite.
The box art and decals for the Hasegawa 1/32nd scale kit show this scheme on 5819, with the capped spinner, although the painting instructions state that it is September 1940 !
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- #23
Gerry
Staff Sergeant
Guys, Been out for most of the day and just caught up with your latest posts when I got home. There's a lot of information there that I would like to consider carefully before I reply. Thanks for all your effort, as it's now very late, I'll post again tomorrow.
Gerry
Gerry
Hi Igor, I can confirm that the image you posted is in fact 5966 and not 5819. The known photo's show 5966 carrying 50 victories. 5819 in fact had a Yellow spinner with RLM70 back plate at this time.
Terry's images are definitely of 5819.
The biggest problem is that many photo's were taken and not always from an angle that clearly identifies the aircraft, for many years almost all images were captioned as being 5819 as no one new any better, the differences being explained as ongoing changes over a period of time.
Once photos emerged showing that there was in fact at least one other 109 that Galland flew that could be identified, careful study of various images then indicated that some of these photo's were in fact 5966.
However there are other recorded aircraft (5816, 5965, 4958 ) yet to be identified and a few of the photo's may in fact be some of these additional 109's....time and more photo's will tell....
The film footage was taken after Gallands 57th victory which was on the 28th Nov. Spinner Cap, engine upgrade, new camo was done sometime between 28th Nov and 58th victory on 5th Dec. as new camo and repainted rudder shows 57 victories then 58.
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imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
Aha, so the caption for the picture I posted in post #18 is incorrect then. Thanks for clarification Wayne.
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You're welcome Igor!
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- #27
Gerry
Staff Sergeant
I found the latest posts from everyone very interesting and really appreciate the time and effort that everyone is contributing to this thread. I needed time to check back on my own research and give a considered response. I'm going to split my responses into consecutive posts, otherwise I'll get totally confused about what I want to say, so here goes:
Firstly, BikerBabe (May I call you Maria from now on?), delighted you're going to start your build. Which kit are you building? I don't want to turn this build into a race, but it will be interesting to keep tabs on each other's progress. Have you any idea as to which version of Galland's aircraft you're going to build? I seem to be focusing in on 5819, November 1940, 57/58 victories (see next reply to Wayne Terry). I'll be citing some of your photos in that reply. Hope you don't mind.
Firstly, BikerBabe (May I call you Maria from now on?), delighted you're going to start your build. Which kit are you building? I don't want to turn this build into a race, but it will be interesting to keep tabs on each other's progress. Have you any idea as to which version of Galland's aircraft you're going to build? I seem to be focusing in on 5819, November 1940, 57/58 victories (see next reply to Wayne Terry). I'll be citing some of your photos in that reply. Hope you don't mind.
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- #28
Gerry
Staff Sergeant
Wayne Terry, I'm combining my reply to you both, as you both seem to be broadly in agreement.
Terry, thank you for that definite reference about the open spinner. I am reluctant to put more work on you, as I appreciate you contribute to most threads on this forum, but can you remember if in that film footage the rudder and victory bars were shown? That would really be a clincher if they were.
Wayne, in my research back through Najco's 'Galland's Bf 109s' thread, both yourself and Flavio seemed the most sure of your conclusions regarding Galland's specific aircraft, so I am willing to defer to your depth of experience:
I'm happy to take that as the basis for my scheme for the aircraft, unless someone disagrees vehemently. So, Nov 1940, 56/57 victory bars. As the profile below, with the extra bars? Profile 1
Picture 2 is from Najco, from his own Thread. This looks to me like it might be the profile of the open spinner, what do you think?
The other thing I'll cover here are the Abschusse markings. Up to the point that I got the Techmod decals, all colour references I'd seen for them have been in black. But looking at the deliberate way they've been laid out by Techmod, it looks like someone there gave it serious thought, possibly from a reference. Picture 3. Not just split randomly but 3 rows of 30, red then 34 35 in red also. I would be reluctant to use these, unless there was some other verification.
But there was something else I found that could support this. Picture 4 is a Photoshop b/w conversion. You can see the difference in tone between black and red. Now look at this reference from Maria's post on Najco,s thread Picture 5.(The markings are hers.) The first 37 seem to be lighter than the next 13 (see the different contrast on row 4). Row 5 seems darker. It's hard to call row 6, because of the shadow but 59/60 seem lighter again. I appreciate that this could be down to natural fading or lighting and although the pattern is different from the Techmod decals, could this have been a split colour scheme? It bears consideration.
Terry, thank you for that definite reference about the open spinner. I am reluctant to put more work on you, as I appreciate you contribute to most threads on this forum, but can you remember if in that film footage the rudder and victory bars were shown? That would really be a clincher if they were.
Wayne, in my research back through Najco's 'Galland's Bf 109s' thread, both yourself and Flavio seemed the most sure of your conclusions regarding Galland's specific aircraft, so I am willing to defer to your depth of experience:
I'm happy to take that as the basis for my scheme for the aircraft, unless someone disagrees vehemently. So, Nov 1940, 56/57 victory bars. As the profile below, with the extra bars? Profile 1
Picture 2 is from Najco, from his own Thread. This looks to me like it might be the profile of the open spinner, what do you think?
The other thing I'll cover here are the Abschusse markings. Up to the point that I got the Techmod decals, all colour references I'd seen for them have been in black. But looking at the deliberate way they've been laid out by Techmod, it looks like someone there gave it serious thought, possibly from a reference. Picture 3. Not just split randomly but 3 rows of 30, red then 34 35 in red also. I would be reluctant to use these, unless there was some other verification.
But there was something else I found that could support this. Picture 4 is a Photoshop b/w conversion. You can see the difference in tone between black and red. Now look at this reference from Maria's post on Najco,s thread Picture 5.(The markings are hers.) The first 37 seem to be lighter than the next 13 (see the different contrast on row 4). Row 5 seems darker. It's hard to call row 6, because of the shadow but 59/60 seem lighter again. I appreciate that this could be down to natural fading or lighting and although the pattern is different from the Techmod decals, could this have been a split colour scheme? It bears consideration.
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- #29
Gerry
Staff Sergeant
Imalko, i understand your confusion. I am in exactly the same position. If you refer back to the profiles at the head of the thread, all are identified as 5819 and somebody took great care to produce them, yet there are inconsistencies in all, based on Wayne's information. I am relying on Wayne /Terry on this for the reasons outlined above but am always happy to consider another point of view.
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- #30
Gerry
Staff Sergeant
Well, having got all that down, I actually got to open the kit at last. For anyone who isn't already familiar with it it consists of 129 parts in three different colours of Plastic which is not at all relevant to the construction of the kit. Picture 1 Airframes (Terry) has done a comprehensive review of the Matchbox kit on page 3 of the Model Kit Reviews section of the forum, comparing it against the Hasegawa kit, for anyone who might like more info. Despite its age the Matchbox kit comes out very well.
Photo 2 is the 15/20 year old kit decals, which unfortunately are virtually useless on many counts. Firstly, they don't actually feature an aircraft as flown by Galland but one of his 109s later transferred to a training squadron.
As well, only one squadron badge (in red) for each scheme and one Mickey mouse. And as always, no swastikas are supplied. I may however, have to use the abschusse bars, if my theory of the red/black mix proves mistaken.
Photo 3 is the Techmod sheet, much better but with a question mark over the red/black abschusse bars. And there's about a week's work on the warning decals alone!
Photo 4 is the aries cockpit set, which I hope to use.
And finally Photo 5 Th Vac form canopy, just the opening centre section of which I hope to use.
The only work done so far is taking the engine parts off the sprues and cleaning up and preparing for filling. I'll post photos as soon as any substantial work is done
Photo 2 is the 15/20 year old kit decals, which unfortunately are virtually useless on many counts. Firstly, they don't actually feature an aircraft as flown by Galland but one of his 109s later transferred to a training squadron.
As well, only one squadron badge (in red) for each scheme and one Mickey mouse. And as always, no swastikas are supplied. I may however, have to use the abschusse bars, if my theory of the red/black mix proves mistaken.
Photo 3 is the Techmod sheet, much better but with a question mark over the red/black abschusse bars. And there's about a week's work on the warning decals alone!
Photo 4 is the aries cockpit set, which I hope to use.
And finally Photo 5 Th Vac form canopy, just the opening centre section of which I hope to use.
The only work done so far is taking the engine parts off the sprues and cleaning up and preparing for filling. I'll post photos as soon as any substantial work is done
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Crimea_River
Marshal
Great info here. Gerry, looks like you're going for the greatest possible accuracy. I commend you for that sir!
imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
Hey Gerry, I've noticed you have some Slovakian markings on your decal sheet. Have you ever considered to build a Bf 109E of Slovak Air Arms? Now, that is something where I could really help you with research.
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- #33
Gerry
Staff Sergeant
Wurger, thanks for the re-edit. Unfortunately that last photo slipped through the net and I couldn't figure how to downsize it myself.
Crimea River, I will try for accuracy, hopefully without being too obsessive about it. That's half the fun. Whether it works out in the end, we'll just have to wait and see.
imalko, i think we'll just take it one step at a time...but if you ever need a 20 year old set of Slovakian crosses... I'm your man.
Crimea River, I will try for accuracy, hopefully without being too obsessive about it. That's half the fun. Whether it works out in the end, we'll just have to wait and see.
imalko, i think we'll just take it one step at a time...but if you ever need a 20 year old set of Slovakian crosses... I'm your man.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Gerry, yes, the film footage showed the Abschuss, but, as with the Wk.Nr., it's so brief they can't be seen very well.
Personally, I've always believed that all the marks were red, and the tonal rendition in that pic bears this out, any variation more than likely being a combination of the paint weight and lighting. Note, for example, that some are slightly wider than others. However, I could be wrong, and this is something which has been debated for many years.
Personally, I've always believed that all the marks were red, and the tonal rendition in that pic bears this out, any variation more than likely being a combination of the paint weight and lighting. Note, for example, that some are slightly wider than others. However, I could be wrong, and this is something which has been debated for many years.
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- #35
Gerry
Staff Sergeant
I don't know Terry. when someone as experienced as yourself can't be certain, you'd wonder will these questions ever be answered for certain. The holy grail would be for some long-lost cans of colour movie stock, shot by the Luftwaffe, of all their aces' mounts be found in someone's cellar. Some dream. Though Flavio's colour shots, in Nacjo's 109s thread, post 108, shows 60 black bars against a RLM 65 patch on the rudder.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Have a closer look Gerry. The majority are red, with what appears to be some black bars, starting 3rd bar in, 3rd row. But, which 109 is it?!!
Terry, after reviewing some more tail shots, I'm getting more convinced that the victory markings ARE a combination of red and Black in some cases.
Might be in all cases BUT some of the pics just don't show any colour variation at all....which clouds the issue somewhat....
There are enough shots that show what I think are Red and Black on different aircraft that have a pattern in terms of the order, some can be explained while others i haven't figured out yet.....will continue pondering this puzzle....
In the mean time I think we can come up with an accurate aircraft for Gerry!
Might be in all cases BUT some of the pics just don't show any colour variation at all....which clouds the issue somewhat....
There are enough shots that show what I think are Red and Black on different aircraft that have a pattern in terms of the order, some can be explained while others i haven't figured out yet.....will continue pondering this puzzle....
In the mean time I think we can come up with an accurate aircraft for Gerry!
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- #38
Gerry
Staff Sergeant
Terry, Assuming we're both looking at the same photo (Flavio's colour photo) I can't see any red abschusse bars on my screen. Admittedly, it's low reg but even when I blow it up to pixel level, for the life of me, I can't see even a hint of a red pixel. However, I still agree that there could be mixes of red and black in some instances, as Wayne suggests.
Anyhow just an update on the build. Started engine assembly but trying to decide if some of the smaller pieces need pre-painting before assembly. Will post photos when I've made more progress.
Tried a dry fit for the main parts. The fuselage held together just on the location pins and seems pretty good. there's a slight step just visible port side, behind the cockpit. This may be resolved by removing the locating pin or by sanding. Otherwise a few sink marks and a bit of filler, mainly underneath.
The port side view shows up the different coloured plastics used for the fuselage and the wings.
Anyhow just an update on the build. Started engine assembly but trying to decide if some of the smaller pieces need pre-painting before assembly. Will post photos when I've made more progress.
Tried a dry fit for the main parts. The fuselage held together just on the location pins and seems pretty good. there's a slight step just visible port side, behind the cockpit. This may be resolved by removing the locating pin or by sanding. Otherwise a few sink marks and a bit of filler, mainly underneath.
The port side view shows up the different coloured plastics used for the fuselage and the wings.
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I think I had a slight step in the same place, but in general, the kit goes together well.
Re the red / black bars on the rudder, for some reason, I can't see the first pic, but the second (colour) pic definitely shows red bars, with what appear to be some black, and probably are, but could be a darker red - who knows?!
I agree with Wayne - I've looked at various pics, where some tonal difference is evident, and others look the same!
Re the red / black bars on the rudder, for some reason, I can't see the first pic, but the second (colour) pic definitely shows red bars, with what appear to be some black, and probably are, but could be a darker red - who knows?!
I agree with Wayne - I've looked at various pics, where some tonal difference is evident, and others look the same!
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- #40
