GB-55 1/48 B-25D-1 Mitchell - MTO III

[Crimea_River]

Sorry CATCH 22 Yves, I had to open your post up on my laptop. The phone doesn't really work great for pics like that. Yes, I would agree that there would be room with some equipment moves. The intercom stuff would be no big deal. The oxygen regulator would involve new tubing but doable.

So you're thinking that there are two rows of boxes for the flex gun but just one box for the fixed, possibly below the others? I suppose it's also possible that they put the fixed gun ammo box on the floor on a diagonal as you showed earlier in post 169 along with the two rows of boxes for the flex 50. That way, no move of the regulator would be needed. It might make sense to have more ammo for the human gunner on ops.

 

[Micdrow]

Just found these shots and source granted these are pacific

 

[Crimea_River]

Nice!

 

[CATCH 22]

Just found these shots and source granted these are pacific

View attachment 693067View attachment 693068View attachment 693069

Paul, great photos! You always have something unexpected!
Those photos show the standard fixed nose gun though - in higher position, not the mod in lower position. The box(es) on the floor is(are) for the fixed one, for sure. It looks like this is a single box (100 rounds) not the double two partitioned box I posted, as shown in my manual. That's a great point! (I should not call them "double", they might have been not twice the size of the single boxes).

 

[Crimea_River]

Leaning toward two rows of boxes for the flex 50 and a floor mounted row for the fixed. I suspect the ammo feed on the fixed gun would have been over the top of the gun and into the right side with discharge to bags on the left. Now, if the flex 50 had two rows of boxes, how did the lower box feed the top, or would the gunner have just switched the belt?

Colour of ammo boxes?

 

[fubar57]

Great stuff gentlemen

 

[CATCH 22]

So you're thinking that there are two rows of boxes for the flex gun but just one box for the fixed, possibly below the others? I suppose it's also possible that they put the fixed gun ammo box on the floor on a diagonal as you showed earlier in post 169 along with the two rows of boxes for the flex 50. That way, no move of the regulator would be needed. It might make sense to have more ammo for the human gunner on ops.

I'll just repeat Paul's information with a diagram of the 3 standard ammo-boxes for the flex gun, from a B-25C/D manual - it's virtually the same as on B-25J.

Each box is for 100 rounds. These are the bigger standard boxes, not the ones we are discussing. The standard one on the floor is even bigger.
The smaller boxes might have been connected in a different way allowing a lower row box to feed an upper row box. Or maybe I'm wrong, Maybe the whole modification I suggested earlier is a big BS and the real people tried to work around all existing systems and not to move them.
Yes, I think the flexible gun had more rounds than the fixed one in the standard factory combination, resp. they did the same with the mods earlier.
O.K., had a double 12-years Canadian .... something and this came to my mind: what if there are not 2 rows of boxes on the photo? What if those are deeper shorter boxes so we have 3 of them, connected in the usual way.
I don't have any ammunition manual or similar source. There was this Gunner's manual we are often quoting in the forum - don't know if ammo boxes are included there.
Some more information (and...hm, fuel) needed.
Cheers!

 

[Crimea_River]

The idea that the early boxes might be deeper makes sense. If they jury-rigged a rack like that then what we see there may be a rail to prevent the boxes from flying off the shelf.

 

[CATCH 22]

The idea that the early boxes might be deeper makes sense. If they jury-rigged a rack like that then what we see there may be a rail to prevent the boxes from flying off the shelf.

Just for comparison:
The standard (as I call it) center ammo box:

And another type, more like the one we are looking for:

Check this forum and thread for another B-25 type of boxes.
Cheers!

 

[Vic Balshaw]

Amazing info and a credit to a great team of guys.

 

[Crimea_River]

Thanks Vic and Yves. Yves coincidentally I was googling too and came across the same site. I didn't see that one but saw something similar. I will go with the single row of deep boxes on the rack and will wing the dimensions. I like the Micarda colour too!

 

[CATCH 22]

Thanks Vic and Yves. Yves coincidentally I was googling too and came across the same site. I didn't see that one but saw something similar. I will go with the single row of deep boxes on the rack and will wing the dimensions. I like the Micarda colour too!

One last word (not the last last, but about the ammo-boxes).
What chance had the mechanics/technical staff with field mods: to use what's available. What ammo-boxes did they have during the time of the early Mitchells in the MTO:
1. 0.30 original boxes (those small single ones for the hand-held 0.30 gun in the nose): not usable for 0.50;
2. 0.50 boxes from the top and bottom turrets in a B-25 (I know the lower turret had very specific ammo-boxes, 1/8 circular, on both sides of the turret);
3. British ammo-boxes (this is here just to make the mandatory 3 choices);
3a. maybe something else?
O.K. where were the ammo-boxes for the top turret of a B-25B/C/D and how did they look? As simple as it is I can't answer this question. Maybe we already have them in the "B-25 weapons" thread? Maybe they were completely different?
BTW the Micarta-brown boxes: I love the ones with the metal edges and chrome hinges and locks (in the forum I mentioned). They look like elegant suitcases!
Cheers!

 

[Crimea_River]

The ammo can for the top turret was integral with the turret and was mounted in front of the gunner.

 

[CATCH 22]

The ammo can for the top turret was integral with the turret and was mounted in front of the gunner.

View attachment 693123

Yep, those are obviously not to be re-used in a different way. On a photo I have with a B-25C/D turret they were removed and I forgot to look further.
Thanks!

 

[Wayne Little]

very interesting stuff Guys...

 

[Crimea_River]

What about B-24 waist gun ammo boxes. Might those have been available/used?

 

[CATCH 22]

What about B-24 waist gun ammo boxes. Might those have been available/used?

...or B-17?
Yes, these were the bombers already in use in the MTO and probably a potential source for the "cans".
Andy, I believe we started an unprecedented discussion here. I couldn't find any written source (incl. forums I know from before) dealing with this modification/change. Most of the authors ignore the fact of the "low fixed gun" and put it in the group of the standard changes, starting with block -5 (flexible 0.5 and high positioned fixed 0.5).
Going through my books I found an interesting photo in The "B-25 Bible" (The Magnificent Medium" by Norm Avery) which I have seen hundreds of times before, but never tried to "decipher" it:

Check the text - even Norm Avery makes mistakes. This is not a B-25J. It's an early B-25C/D with the opening for the 0.30 ball-socket patched over and showing the LOWER FIXED GUN. This is obviously a photo from a factory (cannot recognize if Inglewood or Fairfax/Kansas City though) with more B-25C/D being serviced in the background. The author himself says it's a NAA-photo. Maybe this is a photo of the prototype for this modification?
To show the difference here is an early B-25J with the standard nose armament:

In the beginning of your thread I posted photos of a/c with this type of armament not only from the MTO, but from a different theater (CBI) as well, only to visualize the idea in a better way. Now I can tell with a great probability that this might be a factory (resp. a modification centre) addition which was copied or installed in the field as well (could be a simple kit, sent to the war zones).
In such case the ammo-boxes could be factory delivered too.
I'll be working on this in the next future, my good friend Paul is also informed, but anybody here with knowledge, documents, memoirs of airmen in the MTO or elsewhere is kindly invited to share some info. We are talking of a modification that happened in the blocks B-25C/D (no number) and B-25C-1/D-1 only. Starting with blocks B-25C-5/D-5 all a/c received the standard higher positioned fixed 0.5-gun.
The truth is out there!
Cheers!

 

[Crimea_River]

Great stuff Yves CATCH 22 and interesting that this may be a factory mod. If that's the case, I would think that there are mod sheets available somewhere describing this. In researching our Mosquito, I've managed to find copies of a number of original mod sheets from the British Archives and elsewhere and I'm under the impression, maybe wrongly, that US archives tend to be more readily available than British ones.

I'm obviously in no position to help here as I'm just the dumb modeler. However, I'm sure that as soon as I button this thing up someone will come along with actual photos or drawings of the installation. I'm happy to be a very small catalyst for this discovery.

Now, I do need to get a move on here as I'll be away for at least 8 days as of Thursday this week. There's zero chance that this model will be done for the deadline of Dec 4 so I'll declare that now. However, I am still intrigued with the subject and will continue as time permits.

 

[Vic Balshaw]

Shame your having to drop out of this one Andy, unfortunately life gets in the way from time to time.

 

[CATCH 22]

I'm obviously in no position to help here as I'm just the dumb modeler. However, I'm sure that as soon as I button this thing up someone will come along with actual photos or drawings of the installation. I'm happy to be a very small catalyst for this discovery.

Andy, please strike-trough "dumb" and add "humble".
I really hope someone will come (sooner or later) with more information. I already initiated some questioning outside of this forum.
To be honest with you, I have another detail for a future discussion too: the cockpit glazing. I think I have the final answer there, but I know/hope there might be some unexpected detail (as usual) to jump out. So these are profound matters one can not just finalize in a month, aren't they?
This being said, a GB is like a beer after work: you like it very much but you have to stop drinking and go back home and have a good night sleep before tomorrow's work.
A single build is like a single malt (whiskey) with friends in a bar: the longer you drink, the better you feel. And you can repeat the same ritual as many times you want.
Cheers!