Georgia and Russia at war.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Adler I suppose you can read German so here is some good analysis from an independend source:

Osteuropa-Experte Segbers zum Georgien-Krieg: "Saakaschwili hat sich verkalkuliert" - Politik - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten

I agree with a lot of that article.

 

[timshatz]

For all concerned, I'm kinda stuck into being the defacto defender of the Georgian position on this thing and would really rather not have the job. Posted the Op-Ed pieces to show there is a measure of consistency in the general reaction to the current conflict between Georgia and Russia. I could've posted plenty more but figured the point was made with the three that I threw up.

I figure we are all too far away to see the details of what is happening here. Hope it all settles down as the long term ramifications are not good for anyone involved.

 

[timshatz]

Yea Tim - I think there more BS there as well - "Moscow's own treatment of separatism — killing tens of thousands of Chechens over the past decade — says volumes about its claims that it is just trying to protect a minority population." Is nothing being said about Chechen rebels and their ties to Islamic terrorism?

Hence my point about not liking the NYT. Way too liberal for me.

From what I saw of the Chechen War, Russia was pretty much reacting more than acting. The Chechens attacked Russia proper, blowing up an apartment block, attacking subway stations, taking hostages at a theatre and attacking a school in Breslan. As brutal as that war was, I do not see any solution but the ones the Russians came up. It was brutal in response and just as effective. In truth, considering the situation, the Russians had no real options.

 

[Ramirezzz]

To throw another log on the fire, here is the Op Ed from the Wall Street Journal.

First of all, WS Journal is not known as a magazine friendly towards Russia but whatsoever..

The farther Russia's tanks roll into Georgia, the more the world is beginning to see the reality of Vladimir Putin's Napoleonic ambitions. Having consolidated his authoritarian transition as Prime Minister with a figurehead President, Mr. Putin is now pushing to reassert Russian dominance in Eurasia. Ukraine is in his sights, and even the Baltic states could be threatened if he's allowed to get away with it. The West needs to draw a line at Georgia.

No matter who fired the first shot last week in the breakaway Georgian region of South Ossetia, Moscow is using the separatist issue as an excuse to demolish Georgia's military and, if possible, depose its democratically elected government.

I do believe it makes a difference who fired the first shot. And it looks like the Georgian goverment is still there on its place , not been overtrown.

Russian forces moved ever deeper into Georgia proper Monday. They launched a second front in the west from another breakaway province

, Abkhazia, and took the central city of Gori, which lies 40 miles from the Georgian capital of Tbilisi.

as I've said, its not true. They hadn't captured that city.

These moves slice the country in half and isolate its ports, most of which Russia has bombed or blockaded. Moscow dismissed a cease-fire drawn up by European nations and signed by Georgia.

Timshatz all articles you've put here for discussion are based on unconfirmed claims which were partially demented by Georgians themself. Moscow had not isolated any of Georgian port, while some installements there were in fact been bombed.
And after all - Russian troops are about to be pulled out of Georgia, arent they? Breathe normally guys So much about the alleged Moscow wish to overtrow Saakashvili.

Russian claims of Georgian ethnic cleansing now look like well-rehearsed propaganda lines to justify a well-prepared invasion.

No comments here. I suppose some 1500 of Ossetians were shelled and killed by Marsians.

Thousands of soldiers and hundreds of tanks, ships and warplanes were waiting for Mr. Putin's command.

the autor may be unaware of the fact that only the President of Russian Federation can give such orders.

While the rape of Chechnya was brutal, this is the most brazen act of Mr. Putin's reign, the first military offensive outside Russia's borders since Soviet rule ended. Yet it also fits a pattern of other threats and affronts to Russia's neighbors: turning off the oil or natural-gas taps to Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, and even to NATO-member Lithuania; launching a cyberassault on Estonia; opposing two antimissile sites in NATO members in Eastern Europe that couldn't begin to neutralize Russia's offensive capabilities.

keep going.

Our emphasis on NATO here is no coincidence. The Georgia invasion is a direct slap at the Western alliance. Tbilisi, like Kiev, has been pushing for NATO membership. Mr. Putin decided to act while some alliance members, led by Germany, dallied over their applications. Georgia was first.

Well that's a well known truth that Russia doesn't want Georgia to be in NATO, so what? What particulary role that played in Georgia's wish to attack the Ossetians?

Ukraine, which has been pushing Russia to move its Black Sea fleet's headquarters out of the Crimea, could be next.

40 percent of the Ukraine are ethnic Russians. The war between Russia and Ukraine is something what would never come to mind to any person who's familiar with a history of two countries.

The alliance needs to respond forcefully, and it can start today. NATO officials have granted Russia a special meeting before deciding what to do about Georgia -- though we don't recall Russia briefing NATO about its plans in the Caucasus. The meeting is an opportunity to relay to Moscow that Georgian and Ukrainian membership is back on the table and that the alliance is considering all options for Georgia, from a humanitarian airlift to military aid, if Russia doesn't withdraw immediately.

I believe Georgia can say farewell to its NATO integration plans after this conflict. Germany and France are against it more than ever. Nobody needs an unpredictably acting member which actions could cause a WW3. As for Ukraine, the majority of its population is against an Ukrainan NATO membership.

Russia also needs the West's capital and especially its expertise in developing its oil and gas fields at least as much as the West needs Russian energy supplies.

I would not be that sure on this one .Of course Russia cooperates a lot with Western companies in that issue but I believe it is far more critical to the West to have Russia as a reliable gas&oil supplier.

As for the U.S., this is perhaps the last chance for President Bush to salvage any kind of positive legacy toward Russia, amid what is a useful record elsewhere in Eurasia. While Mr. Bush has championed the region's fledgling democracies, he and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice badly misjudged Mr. Putin. Now would be a good moment for Mr. Bush to publicly acknowledge his misjudgment and rally the West's response.

John McCain had the Russian leader pegged better, which speaks well of his foreign-policy instincts. The Republican Presidential candidate has long said that Russia should be booted from the G-8 and yesterday he outlined a forceful Western strategy on Russia that stops short of military action. Barack Obama has in the past indicated support for the Georgia and Ukraine NATO bids, but the Democratic candidate has yet to explain in any detail how he would respond to the current conflict.

well THAT's a kind of politics why USA "lost" Russia in recent years. Clinton administraton was much wiser.

There's one other way the U.S. could hit Russia where it hurts: by strengthening the dollar.

I highly doubt the US economics is in a condition do to that.

 

[Ramirezzz]

Just reminding you that there are always two sides to the coin.

freakin A man!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I believe Georgia can say farewell to its NATO integration plans after this conflict. Germany and France are against it more than ever. Nobody needs an unpredictably acting member which actions could cause a WW3.

BINGO!

 

[Ramirezzz]

Another opinion piece from a Paper I am not a big fan of (actually strongly dislike it, but hey, it has a good reputation), this one is from the New York Times. While there are disparities in all the opinions posted, you will see they all seem to agree on the details of this thing.

I should also note that I am not, personally, committed to either side of this thing. But I have a hard time believing Georgia attacked Russia (S.O. in this case) as a matter of aggression or territorial ambition.

My apologies in advance to the Russian readers on this board for this and the last two op-eds I posted as they are not complimentary of the Russian position.

Anyway, here's the view from the American Lefties....

I believe Putin is hated even more among them.


Timshatz let me explain it , I can put more than 10 articles with a points of view which are in strong contradiction to those published in the newspapers you've reffered to, mostly from European magazines. That doesn't though affect the whole picture - there're many different points of view been expressed regarding this issue, both prorussian, antirussian and those which try to differ.
You've selected the most radical ones which are not backed by the facts enough. These articles are clearly antirussian inspired what does not necessary contribute to the objectivity.

 

[timshatz]

Ramirezz, it would be good if you posted a couple of them. It is better to get a third side opinion on this thing. Just a couple, no need to go to ten, of reputable Op-Eds showing the Russian point of view.

I've never heard anyone call the Wall Street Journel radical. That's a first.

 

[rochie]

article on bbc website i found interesting.
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Early lessons from S Ossetia conflict

 

[Ramirezzz]

Ramirezz, it would be good if you posted a couple of them. It is better to get a third side opinion on this thing. Just a couple, no need to go to ten, of reputable Op-Eds showing the Russian point of view.

here are some articles written in English, I could provide you with even more written in German and Spanish:

Editorial: South Ossetia - Prisoner of the Caucasus | Comment is free | The Guardian
Has Georgia Overreached in Ossetia? - TIME
Georgia President Mikheil Saakashvili's 'calculated gamble' - Los Angeles Times

I've never heard anyone call the Wall Street Journel radical. That's a first.

well I mean radical towards Russia

 

[timshatz]

article on bbc website i found interesting.
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Early lessons from S Ossetia conflict

Good read.

 

[rochie]

also the more i see of the georgian president the more he looks like he's enjoying all this, i hope this is just a mannerism and he's not as dumb as he seems

 

[Ramirezzz]

does russia trust in west, or the russians think they are surrounding by enemies triyng to desintegrate their country and make that weakest as possible ?

quite frankly I must admit this belief is a wide spread opinion among Russian people and mass media mostly shares this point of view as well. But look , what should we expect from an average Russian? As the Berlin Wall came down and USSR ceased to exist we rightfully expected NATO to being disbanded as there wasn't any plausible reason to continue with its existence. Instead of that in 1997 we became some new NATO member states close to our borders. Then Baltic states joined this organisaton as well. So there were and are serious concerns in the Russian administration and among people , why West actually still needs to expand their military presence up to the Russian borders.Then came this missile shield issue and the tensions began to rise real quick. No one in the country believes these missiles were installed to counter the Iran threat.

 

[Milos Sijacki]

Adler, lol very funny. Judging by a poor reaction by western nations and by USA in which Georgia really had its trust, I would say that Russians are far superior. If they are not, why didn't NATO and USA react a bit more than just condemning the whole conflict?

And let me ask you one thing, just to see your opinion. USA considers South Ossetia and Abkhazia as parts of Georgia's sovereign territory. Kosovo is not considered as a part of territory of Serbia. If Kosovo never was ours, as many polticians claim, although history books disagree, how come there are churches and monasteries which stood there long before USA existed even as an idea? How come my family has medieval roots down there. There was never a kingdom of Kosovo, but there was Serbia.

Russians did exactly what NATO and USA did to us, and they said that. NATO bombed the entire Serbia because of Kosovo, so did the Russians bomb the entire Georgia because of the South Ossetia.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Judging by a poor reaction by western nations and by USA in which Georgia really had its trust, I would say that Russians are far superior. If they are not, why didn't NATO and USA react a bit more than just condemning the whole conflict?

Why should we? If we had gotten involved it would have turned into a much more devastating conflict. Is that something you would want?

Also what was so poor about our reaction? Please explain...

I guess next time Serbia and Kosovo start shooting at each other we should just nuke the place and then never have to worry about it again. Would that reaction be more for your liking?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Judging by a poor reaction by western nations and by USA in which Georgia really had its trust, I would say that Russians are far superior. If they are not, why didn't NATO and USA react a bit more than just condemning the whole conflict?

Poor reaction? In what way? By not doing anything or condemning Russia without out all the facts? And how is Russia superior? I don't think allowing this problem to fester since 1993 shows any kind of superiority.

If Russia was "superior" they would have went in front of the UN Security counsel - given Georgia 48 hours to remove its troops. If there was no response then go in as they did - that's really the only thing I could fault Russia on and to be honest I think had they gone that route there would have been a lot less condemnation from the west....

But then again, going in front of the UN would of been more for theatrics than any thing else.

 

[Ramirezzz]

I guess next time Serbia and Kosovo start shooting at each other we should just nuke the place and then never have to worry about it again.

lol Adler you are a natural born peacekeeper!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And let me ask you one thing, just to see your opinion. USA considers South Ossetia and Abkhazia as parts of Georgia's sovereign territory. Kosovo is not considered as a part of territory of Serbia. If Kosovo never was ours, as many polticians claim, although history books disagree, how come there are churches and monasteries which stood there long before USA existed even as an idea? How come my family has medieval roots down there. There was never a kingdom of Kosovo, but there was Serbia.

Lets see the USA was not discovered yet....

Please stick to something that pertains to the subject.

Russians did exactly what NATO and USA did to us, and they said that. NATO bombed the entire Serbia because of Kosovo, so did the Russians bomb the entire Georgia because of the South Ossetia.

Again you are preaching to the choir. You are getting all bent out of shape for nothing, when no one disagrees with the fact. Stop being so personal and and actually try and understand what everyone is saying. Again no one here said that Russia was unjust for attacking Georgia.

Seriously man, dont take things so personal. There is no need to do so.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

lol Adler you are a natural born peacekeeper!

I try!

I guess Milos would have loved to have the West go to war with Russia over this (even though there was no need to) and destroy each other because that would have been the proper way to react to the situation!

 

[timshatz]

here are some articles written in English, I could provide you with even more written in German and Spanish:

Editorial: South Ossetia - Prisoner of the Caucasus | Comment is free | The Guardian
Has Georgia Overreached in Ossetia? - TIME
Georgia President Mikheil Saakashvili's 'calculated gamble' - Los Angeles Times


well I mean radical towards Russia

More good reads.

Read as many of the Op-Eds as possible and you probably get a good idea of what is going on.